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A few weeks ago I was asked by my teacher if I could find a copy of Dave Tough's "Advanced Paradiddles". It was a book he had used as a youth and he had a hankering for it. Well the search turned into something like the National Treasure movie. No luck on Ebay, nothing from Amazon or any of their second hand affliates.. the closest I could get was an image of the from cover on Drmmerworld.com Now this book had one edition and was last printed in 1947 so I didn't think I could find it too easily. I posted on a couple of forums that have a large vintage following and eventually I had one drummer come back to me from vintagedrumforum.com He took up the challenge and searched online library catelogues. Found two copies in the Library of Congress and started to organise an interlibrary loan through his college so he could send me a copy. I have to say it gave me a warm fuzzy feeling about the world, good people and fellow drummers going that extra mile to help out another druummer that the've never met, don't know and is on the other side of the world. Various other drummers chipped in with other clues and eventually we found a copy in a University library in Aust (only 1,000 miles from me but a whole lot closer than I thought possible) I check with my local municipal library and they were willing to try and get an interlibrary transfer for me (they apologised that it was $15 and that their share of that was $2) So the book arrived today, 102 pages of paradiddles exercises and I get to make a friend happy! How good is the internet, how valuable is drumming forums and especially the the fellowship of drummers that makes possible the tracking down of an obscure book that's 61 years old possible. Sometimes the world is a better place than I give it credit for. |
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Cool story, and tell us what you think of it. Good luck.
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It really is amazing to see how, in such a short time, the internet has changed the planet. A new form of communication with such a massive scope, most now could not imagine life without it. The greatest library in the world, in your house or anywhere with a laptop. 777 |
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Not to mention the days of our lives we've spent while using it. |
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That of course is the way the Internet should be used. As always it takes the drummers in this World to show how technology can be used in a good way. Kind of makes you want to go find all these little grotty hackers that use the Net for their grubby purposes and scragg them all by their nasty measley little necks. Sorry about the rant cats but as we all know. Drummers love to share. They are about the only instrumentalists as a body that do this. We always did. It's about the tradition of the drum that has come down to us as set players from antiquity. |
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that's a great story Stuart, be sure and tell us how he likes it! and Roger that is what's great about drummers. |
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When I started playing for a living at 14 on the road in the 50s I had to rely on the experience of older cats playing the same town as I was. They never let me down. As a matter of fact they got to know when I was in their town or playing through the same area and would come and look me up to talk drumming and show me stuff. Although things have changed a bit these days because some cats who have "careers" going in the business are pretty crusty and full of ego, there are still cats out there who will just rap about drumming and how to handle yourself in the Music. When I started teaching back a few decades ago I made sure I handled the distinction between cats that studied with me and those who needed to know something but weren't coming to me. So many cats who teach drumming today cannot make that distinction and won't take the time to just rap about drumming for drumming's sake. I guess they feel that they should always be making a buck off their knowledge or something. It doesn't work like that. Not in the real World. All people who sit behind a kit or play on something percussively are drummers. It's just that some of us have been doing it longer and can pass on what we know that works to other fellow drummers and drumettes. I've always kept in mind how I was treated by a load of very kind and patient older drum brothers and sisters and made sure I do the same thing now to others. That is what drumming is really all about and the right use of the Internet is just part of all that. That's the real heart of drums and drumming. Not the how great thou art stuff. What goes around, comes around and how we treat each other as sibling players will always come back to us good or bad. Any who put down the ideology of a brother/sister hood of drumming are in my books dogs in the manger. We have to share what we know to keep this young craft of drum set playing evolving. After all the drum set per se didn't really happen until 1936 and the instrument and those who play it are still basically all in an infancy when compared to other instruments around. We are still a very fluid and growing craft here and for anyone to hold stuff to themselves as far as helping fellow players is really a sad thing. I always think back to those fine players that took the time to help me out as a kid and realize that they were and are the core of the Spirit of the drum. They helped me by honing a precious skill and gift and by doing so became precious gifts themselves. After all, you use many less facial muscles to smile than to scowl. So I smile, hand stuff on and see that there are still many others who think the same way as I do. When they say the Joy of Drumming they know they are saying. |
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Hey Stuart - Great story. The Net is a wonderful place. I love it. Even though you have to beware of those who are "out to get you" that part of it is really no different than the "real" world. The Net is the reason that we drumheads from all over the world get to hang out here 24/7 and talk about the things we love best! Your story hit a soft spot with me because that book was one of my favorites when I first started taking lessons, a couple of years back. So I dug it out of my collection and I laughed when I saw the cover price. 102 pages for a big $2.00! ![]() BTW: The inside story on the book is that was Davey Tough's in name only. Bill West actually wrote it. |
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hey Roger, the only issue i have with passing on my knowledge(which i do try to do) is i'm afraid i'm not saying it correctly. i'm afraid my info is wrong or isn't the best. |
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Tigerbill... you had it in your collection and I never thought to ask on this forum.. I should have stuck to this forum (which I think of homebase). I had the same discussion regarding Bill West actually being the author.. last night when I handed the book over to my teacher. Both he and his wife thought it was just special to get a copy again. I also laughed at the cover of my copy. Mine is slightly different as it was only authorised for sales in "The British Empire (excluding Canada)" and had a sticker price of 2 shillings.. My next book finding challenge will be a copy of Chapins (or is it Morello's?) Open Ended.. the one with the template that changes the exercises.. but that'll be a story for an other day. I had a go at the first half dozen pages last night. Looks eay at first glance, but once you increase the tempo a bit it challenges stickings that I am used two and I'll empty my head and just let go when playing these. Cheers to all |
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Yo Awful: Not something to worry about you know. You can only pass on stuff from you own personal experience and perspective. How we treat drumming and the Music personally. It's what makes us who we are as players. Any one can learn from any one. I learned many moons ago, that no matter who the player is, he or she has something to teach me that I didn't know before. Be it technique, sense of musical perception or even just about how to treat gear. That's why we drummers have so much to pass around to each other. Why we do it is the nature of the instrument. We are always giving that much more in the Music for those up front who take what we give, and make the Music happen. The nature of our instrument is support and accompaniment. We do have our little moments as soloists but in the main we are accompanists. It's natural for us to have that nature with each other. Sharing is what we do. When you carry the full Spirit of the music you play with others in your make-up it's natural to let that flow into other parts of your life. That's why the Internet is such a great tool for us drummers to share the art form and craft of drumming. It's a perfect fit. So don't worry about "correctness". It's an art form and craft! A very individual thing. As Dom Famularo is wont to say. "There are two rules in drumming only once you know how to handle the instrument and the sticks etc. One: there are no rules and second: follow the first." |
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I've never really thought about it until reading this thread, but you're right, as musicians drummers are some of the most kind and sharing people out there. There have been times where certain guitarists I've played with have been threatened by other guitarists in the band, getting worried about being put on the back-burner; I've even seen a good friend of mine just flat out shot down by a talented local guitar player when he asked the guy about one of the riffs my friend heard him during a show a while back. I can't remember what exactly he was asking him, but the guy basically said "No, that's my riff and you can't have it", (Not quite those words, but that's how it sounded). I don't want to make it seem like I think all guitarists are like that in one way or another, or that any other type of musician couldn't be like that, but that's just my personal experience. Drummers on the other hand: I have never met one of them/us/you that wasn't happy and eager to pass a little bit of knowledge and a pinch of past experience along to a fellow percussionist. So I'd just like to say thanks to every drummer out there, for...well, being a drummer I guess |
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thanks roger! drumknut, the only "BAD" exsperiences i've had as a musician included a guitarist! back to the original subject, i love learning about older books which drummers hold in high regard. i also love the story of the search and the sharing nature of drummers! |
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Well here's one for you. It's out of print but it's around. Drum Wisdom by Bob Moses. If you haven't been exposed to that book in any way; when you find a copy and read the book, you will never be the same again. You will be much more of whom you are on the instrument, in the Music and as a person. And as to any time I have used another drummer's "lick" in what I do, when caught by the cat I got it from, all I have ever got is " wow that's a neat way of doing that thing." Nothing about hey you stole my lick or anything. I guess that's why we tell each other to make stuff we play "Our Own". Because as drummers, we can do that.The instrument is just that individual!! |
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i've heard of Bob moses, at least i heard someone mention the name! (ugh! i googled it. "perminantly out of print") you know if someone "stole my lick" i'd have no clue! i'd probaly steel it back from them and think they wrote it! |
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Bob used to play with Gary Burton amongst others. A very innovative player and also an acolyte of Roy Haynes. He also played a lot with Steve Swallow and Larry Coryell. In his book one of the things he addresses is resolution points in the phrases and how to stagger them with the drums to make the tune seamless.Many other things also in the book which is not that big. Only 47 pages actually. I'm looking at my copy. He also played drums for Jack DeJohnette when Jack had a group out playing piano and keyboards. I used to use parts of his book when I was teaching drums. The book is aimed more at actual playing than at patterns. I used my copy so much that I finally scanned it to disk and stored my hard copy to save it from wear and tear, so that I could print out stuff for teaching. I tried to reach Bob to get permission to do what I did, but he seems to have basically dropped off the face of the Planet. I'm sure he's out there but he has never answered any of my email inquiries to him. I've seen him play many times and was always totally enthralled by his approach. Actually the fact that he is not really around recording today or if he is, his Music is not in any way mainstream, is a great loss to the Musical and drumming World. Absolutely a magnificent Musician and drummer. |
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Post deleted by TigerBill |
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Stuart. I feel the same but I noticed when I went to your link that at least a couple of those books are still very much in print. Notably Up Close and It's your move, also Jim's book is obtainable through his web site and he's hurting for dollars due to huge medical expenses incurred while his lovely wife Monya was still alive and since, in his own health burdens. Don't be surprised if Tiger takes that link off the site. When I scan a book it's because I am going to use the odd page in my teaching or private use only. I don't usually print out the whole book although in two cases I did send off the books in email to friends. Not those ones though. |
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Hey Stuart - As you'll notice I deleted your post (above) because, as Roger stated, it contains links to downloading books that are stil very much in print. Even on the best terms, drummers rarely very make much at all from the books that they write and/or videos that they appear on - and recordings are often much the same. So please do not post any links on this Forum that allows anyone to download material that is not in the public domain. And if you are uncertain, please err on the safe of being safe and don't post it rather than being sorry that you did! Thank you for understanding. |
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I bought 'The Open End' from Jim's website - I was lucky to get it as there's not many copies left in print. |
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I second all the comments made about the fellowship of drummers - I have had so much help from people on this site, and other drummers. I don't think people who play other instruments would be as 'forthcoming' with help as drummers are. The only negative experience I had was with a peripatetic drum teacher who came into our school, who thought I was after his job; he got very catty with me! Maybe there should be some reprints done of those 'old' books? |
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The way to get them re-printed is to create a demand for them. That comes through awareness that they are out there. If enough of us become aware of those great older resources, a market will be created and of course, the publishing companies will re-print. |
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so we should all E-mail the publishers? |
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Isn't technology wonderful. Here I am 350 miles away from home having just set up my kit for tomorrow's show, working on a wireless set up I have in a brand new to me, used lap top. Anyway, usually if they don't have any copies in archive that they can send you, they will point you in the direction of some clearing house that has some issues of their older books.Sometimes you can contact the authors if they are still alive and if not you can usually catch either their widows or their family who are the inheritors of the authors' estates and they will pop you a copy of the book you are looking for. Same with old recordings. It just takes a little research and work to get to the right source. And yes, we should all E-mail the publishers. That has worked in the past also. |
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The Internet forums has also made it possible for drummers to get out there without spending a lot of money. Last week I found out that I was third in the Rising Star category of the Drum Magazine Reader's Poll. I do not play consistently in one name band, and my endorsement track is only now just getting off the ground. But I have won a lot of name drumset competitions, have lots of Internet videos and I hold one of Mike Mangini's old WFD records. Still, people tell me that 20 years ago all that would have barely caused a ripple, but it's the kind of stuff that catches fire on the Internet. So apparently, many people voted for me on an online ballot that I'm told 20 years ago also didn't exist. So now I'm 18 with C- name rec, which is incredible for somebody like me, and it's because I was out there on the Internet. I'm also seeing more guys work it like this. Soon press agents won't be needed, because it's better to do things this way. Plus the forums put a personal face on the people who will eventually become your regular audience. I hear the world has changed greatly in the last 20 years. I guess this is the proof. |
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20 years ago the Musical world was completely different. Also the drumming World was literally still in the cradle as far as awareness en-masse was concerned. Press agents? Almost a thing of the past. Today it's media spinners, web sites, video clips etc. Also today I find it is not so much booking agents as management companies. Press agents have morphed into advertising/Management companies. The press per se is not as big a factor, but the trade mags are. Because they all not only sell magazines but also do on-line e-mags. Putting all that aside it'ds much more important today to concentrate on the playing skills and let the media spinners take care of the other stuff for you. You can get lost much faster in the hype game due to the ease of using computers to move your career which can take up valuable time you need to keep your drumming and Musical skills razor sharp because there are more of us out there than 20 years ago. Today is much more the era of here today, gone tomorrow both in Music and drumming. The way to protect your endorsements and stuff is to always be on top of your game 24/7. If you're not, it will be nothing more than a good story to tell to your kids and grand-kids in a few decades. With the increased technology of information also comes a greatly increased competitive environment. More cats running up your tail all the time. So remember. The more you are out there in any way, the more you have to work to be better drumming-wise and more to the point Musically. It can become one of those "be careful what you wish for, you might get it" things. |
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The world is definitely moving faster, and it's good to see that costs can be cut. I'm sure pro drummers would really need the experience of a good manager though, even though they take a cut. |