holten
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Wed May 24 2006 01:27 AM
205.188.117.6
I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

its been a wile sence anything was posted on the original thread, thought id try to bring it back.

either every has been said or we forgot about it. but times are changing and so are some views.

mine are pretty much the same, how bout you?


Ratamatatt
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Sat May 27 2006 04:18 PM
68.235.146.135
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

The Bush family, with the full cooperation of the GOP (read: grand ol' pimps, and btw, the dems are only about 1/2 better), have converted the most successful constitutional democracy in history into a fascist, police state.

Here's an enlightening quote from the founder of fascism: "Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini

Gee, doesn't that sound like exactly what's happening to America? It started with Ronald "the brain stem" Reagan's deregulation movement, and Daddy Bush picked up from there, and Clinton continued the tradition. Now the Chimp-in-Chief just has to consolidate what's left of the government and give it away to private contractors (in exchange for hefty kickbacks to the Bush family, or course), whose loyalty is to profits, not to America.

The most pathetic thing of all are those who voted for, support, and trust the Chimp-in-Chief because they think he's a christian. These people are singularly the biggest suckers in human history.

Go rent the movie "Rollerball." That's where the world is headed.


have fun play drum
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Sun May 28 2006 03:31 AM
68.103.121.165
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

Well, what are we going to do about it.

Ratamatatt
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Sun May 28 2006 04:23 AM
74.225.37.29
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

It's easy to say vote democrat so there's a chance the Jackanapes will be impeached and removed from office. But, there's a little problem with that - black box voting aka Diebold, the electronic, paperless voting machine maker who also counts the votes, whose CEO guaranteed a Bush victory in 2004. Further, assuming the votes were being counted accurately (as if), and dems gained a majority in congress, there are still enough corrupt dems in this congress who will combine with the almost universally corrupt GOPer's to defeat any articles of impeachment.

It's not a pretty picture. It's going to take 20+ years to take our government back from big business. It may take violence, perhaps revolution, if it's going to happen.


FunkyChild
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Sun May 28 2006 11:57 PM
70.240.211.113
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

it's scary, but i think we should have our rights back. the goverment thinks we can be supressed with SUV's, plasma screen-tv's, and material **** like that.

mlp187
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Wed May 31 2006 05:16 AM
75.11.52.7
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

There are plenty of posts by democrats that do nothing but point out problems and trash talk republicans. Then I read more and found postings by republicans doing the exact same thing to the democrats. Of course this perspective does not generalize ALL democrats or ALL republicans
It's like listening to a bunch of 4 year olds argue over who has the cooler lunch box. It would be really nice to see postings that facillitate arguments in a legitimate manner (not name calling and generalizing)rather than fallacious arguments.


Ratamatatt
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Wed May 31 2006 10:28 PM
68.235.146.135
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

Except for one problem, the Republicans just won't do that. In the past 20 years Republicans have raised trash talking and partisanship to unprecidented levels and there's no end in site. They own the main stream media and they've been trash talking 24/7/365 for 20 years now, and and it's been working for them, brainwashing the public into voting against their own best interest.

In addition to that, the Republicans in power have raised corporate corruption to unprecidented levels. They have literally sold the U.S. government to giant corporations. No federal agency charged with regulating business and protecting the public is independent anymore. They are all headed and controlled by corporate shills and loyalists.

When industry wants a new law, their lawyers write it and pay off republican lawmakers to pass it.

The most heinous crime of the GOP, in it's crusade to privatize everything, has been to privatize the voting process. Now, our votes are collected and tabulated by private corporations (primarily Deibold who's CEO guaranteed a Bush victory) who paid republican lawmakers to buy their black box/no paper trail voting machines, and then pay them to count the votes for which there is no paper trail or other way to verify the accuracy of the tabulation. THIS IS THE BEGINNING OF THE END OF DEMOCRACY IN AMERICA. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. AND THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS 100% AT FAULT FOR IT.

So, for you to pretend that both sides are somehow equally at falt is an utter misrepresentation.


mlp187
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Wed May 31 2006 11:19 PM
206.202.72.28
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

I'm pretending Ratamatatt - you have your perception and I have mine

mlp187
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Wed May 31 2006 11:23 PM
206.202.72.28
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

That was supposed to say "I'm not pretending"

holten
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Thu Jun 01 2006 02:00 AM
152.163.100.6
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

quote:
The Bush family, with the full cooperation of the GOP (read: grand ol' pimps, and btw, the dems are only about 1/2 better), have converted the most successful constitutional democracy in history into a fascist, police state.

Here's an enlightening quote from the founder of fascism: "Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini

Gee, doesn't that sound like exactly what's happening to America? It started with Ronald "the brain stem" Reagan's deregulation movement, and Daddy Bush picked up from there, and Clinton continued the tradition. Now the Chimp-in-Chief just has to consolidate what's left of the government and give it away to private contractors (in exchange for hefty kickbacks to the Bush family, or course), whose loyalty is to profits, not to America.

The most pathetic thing of all are those who voted for, support, and trust the Chimp-in-Chief because they think he's a christian. These people are singularly the biggest suckers in human history.

Go rent the movie "Rollerball." That's where the world is headed.
--------------------------------------------------
It's easy to say vote democrat so there's a chance the Jackanapes will be impeached and removed from office. But, there's a little problem with that - black box voting aka Diebold, the electronic, paperless voting machine maker who also counts the votes, whose CEO guaranteed a Bush victory in 2004. Further, assuming the votes were being counted accurately (as if), and dems gained a majority in congress, there are still enough corrupt dems in this congress who will combine with the almost universally corrupt GOPer's to defeat any articles of impeachment.

It's not a pretty picture. It's going to take 20+ years to take our government back from big business. It may take violence, perhaps revolution, if it's going to happen.
--------------------------------------------------
Except for one problem, the Republicans just won't do that. In the past 20 years Republicans have raised trash talking and partisanship to unprecidented levels and there's no end in site. They own the main stream media and they've been trash talking 24/7/365 for 20 years now, and and it's been working for them, brainwashing the public into voting against their own best interest.

In addition to that, the Republicans in power have raised corporate corruption to unprecidented levels. They have literally sold the U.S. government to giant corporations. No federal agency charged with regulating business and protecting the public is independent anymore. They are all headed and controlled by corporate shills and loyalists.

When industry wants a new law, their lawyers write it and pay off republican lawmakers to pass it.

The most heinous crime of the GOP, in it's crusade to privatize everything, has been to privatize the voting process. Now, our votes are collected and tabulated by private corporations (primarily Deibold who's CEO guaranteed a Bush victory) who paid republican lawmakers to buy their black box/no paper trail voting machines, and then pay them to count the votes for which there is no paper trail or other way to verify the accuracy of the tabulation. THIS IS THE BEGINNING OF THE END OF DEMOCRACY IN AMERICA. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. AND THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS 100% AT FAULT FOR IT.

So, for you to pretend that both sides are somehow equally at falt is an utter misrepresentation.


how should i put this? oh! heres a way,
those were the stupidest things iv ever heared.

you whant to add in some da vinci code lies wile your at it?


Ratamatatt
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Thu Jun 01 2006 02:47 AM
68.235.146.135
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

Brilliant, holden. How can I possibly argue with principled, well reasoned argument like that. I'll go out on a limb and guess you're another Bush worshipping born again christian! Oh, one more thing. There's no such word as "stupidest." And you might want to look up the word "wile" while your at it. [Roll Eyes]

holten
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Thu Jun 01 2006 05:00 PM
64.12.117.7
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

very well done. [Smile]

i wouldnt say "worshiping," more like supporter


Mike4
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Thu Jun 01 2006 08:21 PM
64.80.98.165
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

Hey Holten - Diebold is true, documented and well under the rug....along with plenty of other documented episodes of ballots literally thrown away.....the election process as we knew it is gone!
_________________________________________________
Right On! FunkyChild - welcome to The Clownification of America

And so it has come to pass on our island, where the papers, radios and televisions no longer differentiate between news and entertainment. Where "American Idol" finals get page 1 treatment and genocide in Darfur is pushed deep inside the paper in the shadow of a 1/2-page Best Buy ad trumpeting a sale on iPod accessories....Stephen Pizzo

We've turned into this nation of overfed clowns, riding around in clown cars, eating clown food, watching clown shows. We've become a nation of cringing, craven ****ups." --James Howard Kunstler
_________________________________________________
For those looking for an arguement/analysis posted in a legitimate manner sans the name calling and generalizing (hey mlp187), this is an excellent but edited extract from Failed States by Noam Chomsky or Why it's Over for America ....enjoy!
_________________________________________________
The selection of issues that should rank high on the agenda of concern for human welfare and rights is, naturally, a subjective matter. But there are a few choices that seem unavoidable, because they bear so directly on the prospects for decent survival.

Among them are at least these three: nuclear war, environmental disaster, and the fact that the government of the world's leading power is acting in ways that increase the likelihood of these catastrophes. It is important to stress the government, because the population, not surprisingly, does not agree.

That brings up a fourth issue that should deeply concern Americans, and the world: the sharp divide between public opinion and public policy, one of the reasons for the fear, which cannot casually be put aside, that, as Gar Alperowitz puts it in America Beyond Capitalism, "the American 'system' as a whole is in real trouble - that it is heading in a direction that spells the end of its historic values [of] equality, liberty, and meaningful democracy".

The "system" is coming to have some of the features of failed states, to adopt a currently fashionable notion that is conventionally applied to states regarded as potential threats to our security (like Iraq) or as needing our intervention to rescue the population from severe internal threats (like Haiti).

Though the concept is recognised to be, according to the journal Foreign Affairs, "frustratingly imprecise", some of the primary characteristics of failed states can be identified. One is their inability or unwillingness to protect their citizens from violence and perhaps even destruction. Another is their tendency to regard themselves as beyond the reach of domestic or international law, and hence free to carry out aggression and violence.

And if they have democratic forms, they suffer from a serious "democratic deficit" that deprives their formal democratic institutions of real substance.

Among the hardest tasks that anyone can undertake, and one of the most important, is to look honestly in the mirror. If we allow ourselves to do so, we should have little difficulty in finding the characteristics of "failed states" right at home.

No one familiar with history should be surprised that the growing democratic deficit in the United States is accompanied by declaration of messianic missions to bring democracy to a suffering world.

Declarations of noble intent by systems of power are rarely complete fabrication, and the same is true in this case. Under some conditions, forms of democracy are indeed acceptable. Abroad, as the leading scholar-advocate of "democracy promotion" concludes, we find a "strong line of continuity": democracy is acceptable if and only if it is consistent with strategic and economic interests (Thomas Carothers). In modified form, the doctrine holds at home as well.

The basic dilemma facing policymakers is sometimes candidly recognised at the dovish liberal extreme of the spectrum, for example, by Robert Pastor, President Carter's national security adviser for Latin America. He explained why the administration had to support the murderous and corrupt Somoza regime in Nicaragua, and, when that proved impossible, to try at least to maintain the US-trained National Guard even as it was massacring the population "with a brutality a nation usually reserves for its enemy", killing some 40,000 people.

The reason was the familiar one: "The United States did not want to control Nicaragua or the other nations of the region, but it also did not want developments to get out of control. It wanted Nicaraguans to act independently, except when doing so would affect US interests adversely."

Similar dilemmas faced Bush administration planners after their invasion of Iraq. They want Iraqis "to act independently, except when doing so would affect US interests adversely". Iraq must therefore be sovereign and democratic, but within limits. It must somehow be constructed as an obedient client state, much in the manner of the traditional order in Central America. At a general level, the pattern is familiar, reaching to the opposite extreme of institutional structures.

The Kremlin was able to maintain satellites that were run by domestic political and military forces, with the iron fist poised. Germany was able to do much the same in occupied Europe even while it was at war, as did fascist Japan in Man-churia (its Manchukuo). Fascist Italy achieved similar results in North Africa while carrying out virtual genocide that in no way harmed its favourable image in the West and possibly inspired Hitler. Traditional imperial and neocolonial systems illustrate many variations on similar themes.

To achieve the traditional goals in Iraq has proven to be surprisingly difficult, despite unusually favourable circumstances. The dilemma of combining a measure of independence with firm control arose in a stark form not long after the invasion, as mass non-violent resistance compelled the invaders to accept far more Iraqi initiative than they had anticipated.

The outcome even evoked the nightmarish prospect of a more or less democratic and sovereign Iraq taking its place in a loose Shiite alliance comprising Iran, Shiite Iraq, and possibly the nearby Shiite-dominated regions of Saudi Arabia, controlling most of the world's oil and independent of Washington.

The situation could get worse. Iran might give up on hopes that Europe could become independent of the United States, and turn eastward. Highly relevant background is discussed by Selig Harrison, a leading specialist on these topics. "The nuclear negotiations between Iran and the European Union were based on a bargain that the EU, held back by the US, has failed to honour," Harrison observes.

"The bargain was that Iran would suspend uranium enrichment, and the EU would undertake security guarantees. The language of the joint declaration was "unambiguous. 'A mutually acceptable agreement,' it said, would not only provide 'objective guarantees' that Iran's nuclear programme is 'exclusively for peaceful purposes' but would 'equally provide firm commitments on security issues.'"

The phrase "security issues" is a thinly veiled reference to the threats by the United States and Israel to bomb Iran, and preparations to do so. The model regularly adduced is Israel's bombing of Iraq's Osirak reactor in 1981, which appears to have initiated Saddam's nuclear weapons programs, another demonstration that violence tends to elicit violence. Any attempt to execute similar plans against Iran could lead to immediate violence, as is surely understood in Washington.

During a visit to Tehran, the influential Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr warned that his militia would defend Iran in the case of any attack, "one of the strongest signs yet", the Washington Post reported, "that Iraq could become a battleground in any Western conflict with Iran, raising the spectre of Iraqi Shiite militias - or perhaps even the US-trained Shiite-dominated military - taking on American troops here in sympathy with Iran."

The Sadrist bloc, which registered substantial gains in the December 2005 elections, may soon become the most powerful single political force in Iraq. It is consciously pursuing the model of other successful Islamist groups, such as Hamas in Palestine, combining strong resistance to military occupation with grassroots social organising and service to the poor.

Washington's unwillingness to allow regional security issues to be considered is nothing new. It has also arisen repeatedly in the confrontation with Iraq. In the background is the matter of Israeli nuclear weapons, a topic that Washington bars from international consideration. Beyond that lurks what Harrison rightly describes as "the central problem facing the global non-proliferation regime": the failure of the nuclear states to live up to their nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty (NPT) obligation "to phase out their own nuclear weapons" - and, in Washington's case, formal rejection of the obligation.

Unlike Europe, China refuses to be intimidated by Washington, a primary reason for the growing fear of China on the part of US planners. Much of Iran's oil already goes to China, and China is providing Iran with weapons, presumably considered a deterrent to US threats. Still more uncomfortable for Washington is the fact that, according to the Financial Times, "the Sino-Saudi relationship has developed dramatically", including Chinese military aid to Saudi Arabia and gas exploration rights for China.

By 2005, Saudi Arabia provided about 17 per cent of China's oil imports. Chinese and Saudi oil companies have signed deals for drilling and construction of a huge refinery (with Exxon Mobil as a partner). A January 2006 visit by Saudi king Abdullah to Beijing was expected to lead to a Sino-Saudi memorandum of understanding calling for "increased cooperation and investment between the two countries in oil, natural gas, and minerals".

Indian analyst Aijaz Ahmad observes that Iran could "emerge as the virtual linchpin in the making, over the next decade or so, of what China and Russia have come to regard as an absolutely indispensable Asian Energy Security Grid, for breaking Western control of the world's energy supplies and securing the great industrial revolution of Asia". South Korea and southeast Asian countries are likely to join, possibly Japan as well.

A crucial question is how India will react. It rejected US pressures to withdraw from an oil pipeline deal with Iran. On the other hand, India joined the United States and the EU in voting for an anti-Iranian resolution at the IAEA, joining also in their hypocrisy, since India rejects the NPT regime to which Iran, so far, appears to be largely conforming.

Ahmad reports that India may have secretly reversed its stand under Iranian threats to terminate a $20bn gas deal. Washington later warned India that its "nuclear deal with the US could be ditched" if India did not go along with US demands, eliciting a sharp rejoinder from the Indian foreign ministry and an evasive tempering of the warning by the US embassy.

The prospect that Europe and Asia might move toward greater independence has seriously troubled US planners since World War II, and concerns have significantly increased as the tripolar order has continued to evolve, along with new south-south interactions and rapidly growing EU engagement with China.

US intelligence has projected that the United States, while controlling Middle East oil for the traditional reasons, will itself rely mainly on more stable Atlantic Basin resources (West Africa, western hemisphere). Control of Middle East oil is now far from a sure thing, and these expectations are also threatened by developments in the western hemisphere, accelerated by Bush administration policies that have left the United States remarkably isolated in the global arena. The Bush administration has even succeeded in alienating Canada, an impressive feat.

Canada's minister of natural resources said that within a few years one quarter of the oil that Canada now sends to the United States may go to China instead. In a further blow to Washington's energy policies, the leading oil exporter in the hemisphere, Venezuela, has forged probably the closest relations with China of any Latin American country, and is planning to sell increasing amounts of oil to China as part of its effort to reduce dependence on the openly hostile US government. Latin America as a whole is increasing trade and other relations with China, with some setbacks, but likely expansion, in particular for raw materials exporters like Brazil and Chile.

Meanwhile, Cuba-Venezuela relations are becoming very close, each relying on its comparative advantage. Venezuela is providing low-cost oil while in return Cuba organises literacy and health programs, sending thousands of highly skilled professionals, teachers, and doctors, who work in the poorest and most neglected areas, as they do elsewhere in the Third World.

Cuba-Venezuela projects are extending to the Caribbean countries, where Cuban doctors are providing healthcare to thousands of people with Venezuelan funding. Operation Miracle, as it is called, is described by Jamaica's ambassador to Cuba as "an example of integration and south-south cooperation", and is generating great enthusiasm among the poor majority.

Cuban medical assistance is also being welcomed elsewhere. One of the most horrendous tragedies of recent years was the October 2005 earthquake in Pakistan. In addition to the huge toll, unknown numbers of survivors have to face brutal winter weather with little shelter, food, or medical assistance. One has to turn to the South Asian press to read that "Cuba has provided the largest contingent of doctors and paramedics to Pakistan", paying all the costs (perhaps with Venezuelan funding), and that President Musharraf expressed his "deep gratitude" for the "spirit and compassion" of the Cuban medical teams.

Some analysts have suggested that Cuba and Venezuela might even unite, a step towards further integration of Latin America in a bloc that is more independent from the United States. Venezuela has joined Mercosur, the South American customs union, a move described by Argentine president Nestor Kirchner as "a milestone" in the development of this trading bloc, and welcomed as opening "a new chapter in our integration" by Brazilian president Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva. Independent experts say that "adding Venezuela to the bloc furthers its geopolitical vision of eventually spreading Mercosur to the rest of the region".

At a meeting to mark Venezuela's entry into Mercosur, Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez said, "We cannot allow this to be purely an economic project, one for the elites and for the transnational companies," a not very oblique reference to the US-sponsored "Free Trade Agreement for the Americas", which has aroused strong public opposition. Venezuela also supplied Argentina with fuel oil to help stave off an energy crisis, and bought almost a third of Argentine debt issued in 2005, one element of a region-wide effort to free the countries from the control of the US-dominated IMF after two decades of disastrous effects of conformity to its rules.

The IMF has "acted towards our country as a promoter and a vehicle of policies that caused poverty and pain among the Argentine people", President Kirchner said in announcing his decision to pay almost $1 trillion to rid itself of the IMF forever. Radically violating IMF rules, Argentina enjoyed a substantial recovery from the disaster left by IMF policies.

Steps toward independent regional integration advanced further with the election of Evo Morales in Bolivia in December 2005, the first president from the indigenous majority. Morales moved quickly to reach energy accords with Venezuela.

Though Central America was largely disciplined by Reaganite violence and terror, the rest of the hemisphere is falling out of control, particularly from Venezuela to Argentina, which was the poster child of the IMF and the Treasury Department until its economy collapsed under the policies they imposed. Much of the region has left-centre governments.

The indigenous populations have become much more active and influential, particularly in Bolivia and Ecuador, both major energy producers, where they either want oil and gas to be domestically controlled or, in some cases, oppose production altogether. Many indigenous people apparently do not see any reason why their lives, societies, and cultures should be disrupted or destroyed so that New Yorkers can sit in SUVs in traffic gridlock. Some are even calling for an "Indian nation" in South America.

Meanwhile the economic integration that is under way is reversing patterns that trace back to the Spanish conquests, with Latin American elites and economies linked to the imperial powers but not to one another.

Along with growing south-south interaction on a broader scale, these developments are strongly influenced by popular organisations that are coming together in the unprecedented international global justice movements, ludicrously called "anti-globalisation" because they favour globalisation that privileges the interests of people, not investors and financial institutions. For many reasons, the system of US global dominance is fragile, even apart from the damage inflicted by Bush planners.

One consequence is that the Bush administration's pursuit of the traditional policies of deterring democracy faces new obstacles. It is no longer as easy as before to resort to military coups and international terrorism to overthrow democratically elected governments, as Bush planners learnt ruefully in 2002 in Venezuela.

The "strong line of continuity" must be pursued in other ways, for the most part. In Iraq, as we have seen, mass nonviolent resistance compelled Washington and London to permit the elections they had sought to evade. The subsequent effort to subvert the elections by providing substantial advantages to the administration's favourite candidate, and expelling the independent media, also failed.

Washington faces further problems. The Iraqi labor movement is making considerable progress despite the opposition of the occupation authorities. The situation is rather like Europe and Japan after World War II, when a primary goal of the United States and United Kingdom was to undermine independent labour movements - as at home, for similar reasons: organised labour contributes in essential ways to functioning democracy with popular engagement.

Many of the measures adopted at that time - withholding food, supporting fascist police - are no longer available. Nor is it possible today to rely on the labour bureaucracy of the American Institute for Free Labor Development to help undermine unions. Today, some American unions are supporting Iraqi workers, just as they do in Colombia, where more union activists are murdered than anywhere in the world. At least the unions now receive support from the United Steelworkers of America and others, while Washington continues to provide enormous funding for the government, which bears a large part of the responsibility.

The problem of elections arose in Palestine much in the way it did in Iraq. As already discussed, the Bush administration refused to permit elections until the death of Yasser Arafat, aware that the wrong man would win. After his death, the administration agreed to permit elections, expecting the victory of its favoured Palestinian Authority candidates.

To promote this outcome, Washington resorted to much the same modes of subversion as in Iraq, and often before. Washington used the US Agency for International Development as an "invisible conduit" in an effort to "increase the popularity of the Palestinian Authority on the eve of crucial elections in which the governing party faces a serious challenge from the radical Islamic group Hamas" (Washington Post), spending almost $2m "on dozens of quick projects before elections this week to bolster the governing Fatah faction's image with voters" (New York Times).

In the United States, or any Western country, even a hint of such foreign interference would destroy a candidate, but deeply rooted imperial mentality legitimates such routine measures elsewhere. However, the attempt to subvert the elections again resoundingly failed.

The US and Israeli governments now have to adjust to dealing somehow with a radical Islamic party that approaches their traditional rejectionist stance, though not entirely, at least if Hamas really does mean to agree to an indefinite truce on the international border as its leaders state.

The US and Israel, in contrast, insist that Israel must take over substantial parts of the West Bank (and the forgotten Golan Heights). Hamas's refusal to accept Israel's "right to exist" mirrors the refusal of Washington and Jerusalem to accept Palestine's "right to exist" - a concept unknown in international affairs; Mexico accepts the existence of the United States but not its abstract "right to exist" on almost half of Mexico, acquired by conquest. Hamas's formal commitment to "destroy Israel" places it on a par with the United States and Israel, which vowed formally that there could be no "additional Palestinian state" (in addition to Jordan) until they relaxed their extreme rejectionist stand partially in the past few years, in the manner already reviewed.

Although Hamas has not said so, it would come as no great surprise if Hamas were to agree that Jews may remain in scattered areas in the present Israel, while Palestine constructs huge settlement and infrastructure projects to take over the valuable land and resources, effectively breaking Israel up into unviable cantons, virtually separated from one another and from some small part of Jerusalem where Jews would also be allowed to remain.

And they might agree to call the fragments "a state". If such proposals were made, we would - rightly - regard them as virtually a reversion to Nazism, a fact that might elicit some thoughts. If such proposals were made, Hamas's position would be essentially like that of the United States and Israel for the past five years, after they came to tolerate some impoverished form of "statehood". It is fair to describe Hamas as radical, extremist, and violent, and as a serious threat to peace and a just political settlement. But the organisation is hardly alone in this stance.

Elsewhere traditional means of undermining democracy have succeeded. In Haiti, the Bush administration's favourite "democracy-building group, the International Republican Institute", worked assiduously to promote the opposition to President Aristide, helped by the withholding of desperately needed aid on grounds that were dubious at best.

When it seemed that Aristide would probably win any genuine election, Washington and the opposition chose to withdraw, a standard device to discredit elections that are going to come out the wrong way: Nicaragua in 1984 and Venezuela in December 2005 are examples that should be familiar. Then followed a military coup, expulsion of the president, and a reign of terror and violence vastly exceeding anything under the elected government.

The persistence of the strong line of continuity to the present again reveals that the United States is very much like other powerful states. It pursues the strategic and economic interests of dominant sectors of the domestic population, to the accompaniment of rhetorical flourishes about its dedication to the highest values. That is practically a historical universal, and the reason why sensible people pay scant attention to declarations of noble intent by leaders, or accolades by their followers.
One commonly hears that carping critics complain about what is wrong, but do not present solutions.

There is an accurate translation for that charge: "They present solutions, but I don't like them." In addition to the proposals that should be familiar about dealing with the crises that reach to the level of survival, a few simple suggestions for the United States have already been mentioned:
1) accept the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court and the World Court;
2) sign and carry forward the Kyoto protocols;
3) let the UN take the lead in international crises;
4) rely on diplomatic and economic measures rather than military ones in confronting terror;
5) keep to the traditional interpretation of the UN Charter;
6) give up the Security Council veto and have "a decent respect for the opinion of mankind," as the Declaration of Independence advises, even if power centres disagree; 7) cut back sharply on military spending and sharply increase social spending.

For people who believe in democracy, these are very conservative suggestions: they appear to be the opinions of the majority of the US population, in most cases the overwhelming majority. They are in radical opposition to public policy. To be sure, we cannot be very confident about the state of public opinion on such matters because of another feature of the democratic deficit: the topics scarcely enter into public discussion and the basic facts are little known.

In a highly atomised society, the public is therefore largely deprived of the opportunity to form considered opinions.

Another conservative suggestion is that facts, logic, and elementary moral principles should matter. Those who take the trouble to adhere to that suggestion will soon be led to abandon a good part of familiar doctrine, though it is surely much easier to repeat self-serving mantras. Such simple truths carry us some distance toward developing more specific and detailed answers.

More important, they open the way to implement them, opportun- ities that are readily within our grasp if we can free ourselves from the shackles of doctrine and imposed illusion.

Though it is natural for doctrinal systems to seek to induce pessimism, hopelessness, and despair, reality is different. There has been substantial progress in the unending quest for justice and freedom in recent years, leaving a legacy that can be carried forward from a higher plane than before.

Opportunities for education and organising abound. As in the past, rights are not likely to be granted by benevolent authorities, or won by intermittent actions - attending a few demonstrations or pushing a lever in the personalised quadrennial extravaganzas that are depicted as "democratic politics".

As always in the past, the tasks require dedicated day-by-day engagement to create - in part recreate - the basis for a functioning democratic culture in which the public plays some role in determining policies, not only in the political arena, from which it is largely excluded, but also in the crucial economic arena, from which it is excluded in principle. There are many ways to promote democracy at home, carrying it to new dimensions. Opportunities are ample, and failure to grasp them is likely to have ominous repercussions: for the country, for the world, and for future generations.
-----------------------------------------------
makes sense 2 me...peace [Cool]


mlp187
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Thu Jun 01 2006 10:29 PM
206.202.72.27
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

That is a beautifully written excerpt, thank you for posting it Mike4. I'm inspired to read the book and learn about the author.
And for the record, I'm a registered Independent who just wants us to have our country back.


Ratamatatt
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Fri Jun 02 2006 01:19 AM
68.235.146.135
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

quote:
Originally posted by holten:
very well done. [Smile]

i wouldnt say "worshiping," more like supporter

And your spelling looks like the product of school vouchers. [Razz]

Ratamatatt
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Fri Jun 02 2006 12:26 PM
68.235.146.135
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

quote:
Originally posted by Mike4:
Hey Holten - Diebold is true, documented and well under the rug....along with plenty of other documented episodes of ballots literally thrown away.....the election process as we knew it is gone! . . . .

For a little more detail on how republicans engaged in voter fraud in 2000, 2004 and how they plan to do it in 2006 and 2008. And you thought we lived in a Democracy?

How They Stole Ohio
And the GOP 4-step Recipe to 'Blackwell' the USA in 2008
Abracadabra: Three million votes vanish

A Buzzflash Exclusive

June 1, 2006

By Greg Palast

[Sorry if you're receiving this email a second time; we're in the process of some massive tech upgrading and apologize for any inconvenience!]

[Heads up! Catch Robert Kennedy Jr., Mike Papantonio and Greg Palast this Saturday on Air America's 'Ring of Fire' on the shoplifting of the last election … and the next one.]

This is a fact: On November 2, 2004, in the State of Ohio, 239,127 votes for President of the United States were dumped, rejected, blocked, lost and left to rot uncounted.

And not just anyone's vote. Dive into the electoral dumpster and these "spoiled" votes have a very dark color indeed.

In another life, I taught statistics. And these statistics stank: the raw data tells us that if you are a Black voter, the chance of you losing your vote to technical errors in voting machinery is 900% higher than if you were a white voter.

Any guesses as to whom those African-Americans chose for president on those junked ballots? Check Ohio's racial demographics, do the numbers, and there it is: Kerry won Ohio. And that, too, is a fact. A fact that could not get reported in the USA.

But the shoplifting of those votes in Ohio was just the tip of the theft-berg. November 2, 2004 was a national ballot-box bonfire. In total, over three million votes (3,600,380 to be exact) were cast -- marked, punched, pulled -- YET NEVER COUNTED. I'm not talking about the Ukraine or Uganda. I'm talking about the United States of America "with liberty and justice for all."

Well, not "all." The nine-to-one Black-to-White ballot spoilage rate is a national statistic -- not just an Ohio trick. Last year, I flew to New Mexico to investigate the 33,981 cast but not counted ballots of that state in the 2004 race. George Bush "won" New Mexico by 5,988 votes. Or did he? I calculated that, of the all the ballots rejected and "spoiled," 89% were cast by voters of color. Who won New Mexico? Kerry won -- or he would have, if they had counted the ballots.

But they didn't count them. And that was deliberate. It's in the plan. It's the program. And the program for 2008 is simple. Two million ballots were cast but not counted in the 2000 race. (Over half, 54%, were cast by African-American.) In 2004, the GOP kicked it up to THREE million. Get ready, these guys aim high: "four in '06" and "five in '08" looks to be their game plan.

How will they pile up five million un-voters in 2008? Let's start with the three million "disappeared" of 2004:

Step 1: "Spoiling" ballots -- 1,389,231 of them. In the vote-count game, these are called "undervotes" and "overvotes." You can recognize these lost ballots by their hanging chads, punch cards without punches (an Ohio specialty), paper ballots eaten by scanners, and touch screens that didn't know you touched them.

Step 2: Rejecting "provisional ballots"-- 1,090,729 in this pile. Voters finding themselves at the "wrong" precinct, or wrongly "scrubbed" from voter rolls get these back-of-the-bus ballots first inaugurated in 2002. In '04, provisional ballots were passed out like candy to voters in the poorest precincts. They handed them out -- then threw them away -- one million dumped in all. In Ohio, Republican Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell changed state rules, allowing him to toss out the ballots of legal voters who cast ballots in the wrong precinct although these citizens were told their vote would count after confirming their registration.

Step 3: Not counting absentee ballots -- 526,420 of them. At least, that's what we figure from official stats. But it's anyone's guess how many mailed-in votes were dumped. (However, in one case, in Palm Beach, Florida, Jeb Bush's candidate for Elections Supervisor, Theresa LaPore, counted more absentee votes than absentee ballots mailed in. Not the brightest bulb in the vote-fix biz, that Theresa.)

Step 4: Scrub'm, Purge'm, Block'm. These are the voters who never got to vote at all. This group includes those who found their registrations were never entered on the voter rolls. In Ohio, about one-fourth of those registered by Jesse Jackson's 2004 voter drive, found their registrations delayed beyond the election date or lost.

Add to this un-voter group, those who were wrongly "scrubbed" from registries as "felons." For example, there was Bernice Kines, purged in Florida in 2004 because she was convicted of a felony on July 31, 2009. I repeat: 2009. There was something especially odd about the Ohio felon purge: ex-cons are ALLOWED to vote in that state, Mr. Blackwell.

How many lost their chance to vote by scrubbing, purging and blocking? That's anyone's guess, but one million would not be an unfair estimate -- and that's not included in the 3.6 million tally of ballots uncounted.

Was it deliberate? Oh my God, yes. I'd like you to take a look at the "caging" lists the Republican National Committee concocted to challenge voters with "suspect" addresses. It included page after page of African-American soldiers, like one Randall Prausa, shipped overseas. Mission accomplished, Mr. President?

And there's some new tricks for these old dogs. For the 2006 and 2008, the GOP is pushing new Voter ID requirements. Your signature won't be good enough anymore.

What's wrong with the new ID laws? This: in the 2004 election, 300,000 voters were turned away from the polls for "wrong" ID. For example, in the "Little Texas" counties in New Mexico, if your voter registration included a middle initial but your driver's license had none, you were kicked out of the polling station. Funny, but they only seemed to ask Hispanic voters. We should see the number of voters rejected for ID to quintuple by 2008 based on the new "voting reform" laws recently passed in several states.

Also, coming to a polling station near you: more caging lists, scrub lists, ID challenge lists and more. Exactly why do you think they are compiling those "War on Terror" and War on Immigration databases? Behind the 2000 felon purge lists and behind the 2004 caging lists were databases from the same companies that now have those homeland security contracts. Are they saving us from Osama -- or from Democrats?

I wish I could give you a book on a page, because information is our weapon: Turn on the lights and the cockroaches scatter. That's why I'm asking you to read RFK's article on the Theft of Ohio -- and GET ANGRY. Then read, "Armed Madhouse: … The Scheme to Steal '08' -- AND GET READY.


Ratamatatt
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Fri Jun 02 2006 12:59 PM
68.235.146.135
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

Video about the Chimp-in-Chief: http://streaming.americanprogress.org/ThinkProgress/2005/smears_lies_videotape_medium.320.240.mov.html

Alistair
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Sat Jun 03 2006 08:47 AM
210.55.84.93
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

It's funny looking in on Americans arguing about their country - most of the kids in my history class can see that Bush is an idiot and Iraq is turning into another Vietnam.
Why are the 2 main parties called Democrats and Republican - there is some truly daft terminology there!
Surely all Americans advocate democracy, living in one? Surely America is a republic?
America needs to look out at the rest of the world and stop navel-gazing if it is to truly become a 'great' power.


Ratamatatt
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Sat Jun 03 2006 05:28 PM
68.235.146.135
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

America is a false democracy! It is a republic, and our putative representatives are pimps for the corporate whores who have taken over the government. Under republican rule, the government and everything it owns, which was paid for by taxpayers, is for sale to the highest private bidder - not the one who pays the most for the property, the one who contributes the most kickbacks to the representative pimps who sell it to them.

BTW, isn't Bush one of those banjo playing savants? Da da ding, ding, ding, ding, ding . . . ding . . . dinnnnnnng! [Roll Eyes]


Alistair
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Sat Jun 03 2006 10:37 PM
210.55.84.97
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

Bush is in the big businesses' pockets:
"squeal like a pig, boy!"


holten
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Thu Jun 08 2006 02:46 AM
152.163.100.6
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

hey, wheres GoLoco on this?

Ratamatatt
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Fri Jun 09 2006 11:18 PM
68.235.146.135
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

He went loco! Now he can better relate to Bush and Ann Coulter.

Go Loco
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Sun Oct 15 2006 08:29 PM
172.145.137.38
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

I got yer bush right here rat

Go Loco
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Sun Oct 15 2006 08:56 PM
172.145.137.38
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

I made a statement that started this first post just because I was sick of the way I see this country being taken over and given away by people that don’t have the right to do that.
Maybe most of those people are people that we elected into office and gave them that right.
Most of those people got elected by campaigning on false pretenses.
Too much Mud Slinging goes on in politics today in our country and politicians think that if they make everyone else look bad then they have to look good. You know what’s sad? It works. They get elected then we find out how rotten and crooked they are.
If I could fix it, believe me I would but I don’t know how.
If a politician isn’t crooked when he gets elected, I bet he will be before long and long before he gets re-elected.
If I were elected I’d be crooked too most likely. But I’ll be Damned if I would take money and food out of American’s homes to give it to foreigners and illegal aliens just to look good for the bleeding heart liberals that would get me elected again.
I’ve said this before and say it again, “If I walk into a store and ask the proprietor to sell me a loaf of bread, No Law in the country says that he Has to sell it to me. Matter of fact he can refuse. Matter of Fact he can tell me, “I’m not selling you Any bread because you are White.”
You won’t see that on the TV News or read it in the paper.
If a Green or any other color race or religion walks into the store for the same thing, Our Federal Law says He Has To Get His Bread!
I’m involved with Union Construction which always preaches the Democrat Vote. I don’t always vote that way. To satisfy the Rat, I have never voted for anyone named Bush.
I also think the party system should be abolished and people should be elected on their own actions. It could be the best idea in the world but because a Democrat presented it, the Republicans vote against it, or the other way around. Don't copy and paste this please, it's already been read.


Mike4
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Mon Oct 16 2006 10:08 AM
64.80.98.165
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

My father used to tell me that you can't always stop someone from doing something to you once, but you can keep them from making it a habit.

Matter of Fact, yes, that store proprietor can tell you, “I’m not selling you Any bread
because you are White.” and he can also tell me, “I’m not selling you Any bread
because you are Black.” But the laws, initially setup to protect the groups that were
actually experiencing descrimination, apply to everyone.

What you do with those laws afterward will affect that merchant's bottom line and make sure you get your bread in the future. And yes, reverse descrimination DOES show up in the News and TV.

(See the bottom article for a recent example - October 5th news feed)

Excerpted from

http://public.findlaw.com/civil-rights/r...n-overview.html

Discrimination in Public Accommodations
What is a Public Accommodation?

Federal and state laws prohibit discrimination against certain protected groups in
businesses and places that are considered "public accommodations." The definition of
a "public accommodation" may vary depending upon the law at issue (i.e. federal or state), and the type of discrimination involved (i.e. race discrimination or disability
discrimination). Generally speaking, it may help to think of public accommodations as
most (but not all) businesses or buildings that are open to (or offer services to) the
general public. More specifically, the definition of a "public accommodation" can be
broken down into two types of businesses / facilities:

Government-owned/operated facilities, services, and buildings

Privately-owned/operated businesses, services, and buildings

Privately-owned/operated businesses and buildings. Privately-owned businesses and facilities that offer certain goods or services to the public -- including food, lodging, gasoline, and entertainment -- are considered public accommodations for purposes of federal and state anti-discrimination laws. For purposes of disability discrimination, the definition of a "public accommodation" is even more broad, encompassing most businesses that are open to the public (regardless of type).

Laws Prohibiting Discrimination in Public Accommodations: Race, Color, Religion, and National Origin

Federal law prohibits public accommodations from discriminating on the basis of race, color, religion, or national origin. If you think that you have been discriminated against in using such a facility, you may file a complaint with the Civil Rights Division of the
Department of Justice, or with the United States attorney in your area. You may also file
suit in the U.S. district court.


Example article.....

From the New York Times

MACON, Miss., Oct. 5 — The Justice Department has chosen this no-stoplight, courthouse town buried in the eastern Mississippi prairie for an unusual civil rights test: the first federal lawsuit under the Voting Rights Act accusing blacks of suppressing the rights of whites.

The action represents a sharp shift, and it has raised eyebrows outside the state. The
government is charging blacks with voting fraud in a state whose violent rejection of
blacks’ right to vote, over generations, helped give birth to the Voting Rights Act of 1965. Yet within Mississippi the case has provoked knowing nods rather than cries of outrage, even among liberal Democrats.

The Justice Department’s main focus is Ike Brown, a local power broker whose imaginative electoral tactics have for 20 years caused whisperings from here to the state capital in Jackson, 100 miles to the southwest. Mr. Brown, tall, thin, a twice-convicted felon, the chairman of the Noxubee County Democratic Executive Committee and its undisputed political boss, is accused by the federal government of orchestrating — with the help of others — “relentless voting-related racial discrimination” against whites, whom blacks outnumber by more than 3 to 1 in the county.

His goal, according to the government: keeping black politicians — ones supported by Mr. Brown, that is — in office.

To do that, the department says, he and his allies devised a watertight system for
controlling the all-determining Democratic primary, much as segregationists did decades
ago.

Mr. Brown is accused in the lawsuit and in supporting documents of paying and organizing notaries, some of whom illegally marked absentee ballots or influenced how the ballots were voted; of publishing a list of voters, all white, accompanied by a warning that they would be challenged at the polls; of importing black voters into the county; and of altering racial percentages in districts by manipulating the registration rolls.

To run against the county prosecutor — one of two white officeholders in Noxubee — Mr.
Brown brought in a black lawyer from outside the county, according to the supporting documents, who never even bothered to turn on the gas or electricity at his rented apartment.

That candidate was disqualified. Whites, who make up just under 30 percent of the population here, are circumspect when discussing Mr. Brown, though he remains a hero to many blacks. When he drove off to federal prison to serve a sentence for tax fraud in 1995, he received a grand farewell from his political supporters and friends, including local elected officials; whites, on the other hand, for years have seen him as a kind of occult force in determining the affairs of the county.

Still, many whites said privately they welcomed the Justice Department’s lawsuit, which is scheduled for trial early next year.

“In my opinion, it puts the focus on fair play,” said Roderick Walker, the county prosecutor Mr. Brown tried to oust, in 2003. “They were doing something wrong.”

Up and down South Jefferson Street, though, in the old brick commercial district, the white merchants refused to be quoted, for fear of alienating black customers. “There’s a lot of voting irregularities, but that’s all I’m going to say,” one woman said, ending the conversation abruptly.

The Justice Department’s voting rights expert is less reserved. “Virtually every election provides a multitude of examples of these illegal activities organized by Ike Brown and other defendants, and those who act in concert with them,” the expert, Theodore S. Arrington, chairman of the political science department at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, wrote in a report filed with the court.

Mr. Brown is coolly dismissive of the case against him. He has no office at the white-columned Noxubee County Courthouse, but that is where he casually greets visitors, in a chair near the entrance. A loquacious man, he both minimizes his own role and portrays himself as a central target. Far from being the vital orchestrator portrayed by the government, “when I was in Maxwell prison in ’95 and ’96, the show went right on,” he said.

There are so few whites in the county, Mr. Brown suggests, that the tactics he is accused of are unnecessary to keep blacks in office.

“They can’t win anyway unless we choose to vote for them,” he said with a smile. “If I was doing something wrong — that’s like closing the barn door when the horse is already gone.”

He sees the lawsuit against him as merely the embittered reaction of whites who feel disenfranchised, and he scoffs at a consent decree signed last year in which county officials agreed not to harass or intimidate white candidates or voters, manipulate absentee ballots, or let poll workers coach voters, among other things. “I wouldn’t sign my name,” Mr. Brown said.

But the Justice Department is pressing ahead with its suit, and wants to force Mr. Brown to agree to the same cease-and-desist conditions as his fellow county officials.

The state’s Democratic establishment has hardly rallied around Mr. Brown; privately some Democrats here express disdain for his tactics. Instead, he is being defended by a maverick Republican lawyer who sees the suit as an example of undue interference in the affairs of a political party.

“To do what they want to do, they would virtually have to take over the Democratic Party,” said the lawyer, Wilbur Colom, adding that Mr. Brown’s notoriety had made him the focus of the investigation. “I believe they were under so much pressure because of Ike’s very sophisticated election operation. He is a Karl Rove genius on the Noxubee County level.”

In Jackson, though, a leading light in Mr. Brown’s own party, Mississippi Secretary of State Eric Clark, a longtime moderate in state politics, refused to endorse him.

“Anybody who tries to prevent people from voting is breaking the law,” Mr. Clark said. “I certainly suspect some of that has been going on.”

Back in Macon, in the shadow of the courthouse green’s standard-issue Confederate monument, Mr. Brown spoke of history: “They had their way all the time. They no longer have their way. That’s what it’s all about.” The case is “all about politics,” he said, “all about them trying to keep me from picking the lock.”

But Mr. Walker, the county prosecutor, insisted the past had nothing to do with the case against Mr. Brown. “I wouldn’t sit here and pretend black people haven’t been mistreated,” he said. “I hate what happened in the past. But I can’t do anything about it.”


Go Loco
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Mon Oct 16 2006 09:02 PM
172.149.2.238
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin t hell in a hand basket , part 2

It seems that Mike4 is a very well educated fellow and being an analyst, I think that a prerequisite. Yes the proprietor of the store can tell you he won’t sell you the bread because you are black, but it is against the Code of Federal Regulations and he can be imprisoned for it. If he says “Because you’re white” there is no law against that on Federal record.
Just because the cases you point out made the statements you quote, bears no legal impact. You can say anything in court. It may be stricken form the record but you still said it and folks still heard it.
You know it’s funny but there is only 2 words you can not use in public to call someone and it’s only against regulations if that term applies to them.
I do appreciate your input Mike4. That’s why this is a discussion, a display of knowledge and a chance to opine.


Mike4
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Tue Oct 17 2006 09:27 AM
64.80.98.165
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin t hell in a hand basket , part 2

Although I do appreciate the kind words, I’m just a product of great parents & family, Michigan public schools and a couple of years of college, the military and blessed with a lot of life & reading mixed in. Analyst is merely a job title and an outdated one at that (I’ve been promoted twice since then) and the reason for my input is not to simply display knowledge for knowledge’s sake but to clarify just a couple of your over generalized (and what I believe to be) erroneous statements about both yours AND my civil rights in the US.

In my 9-to-5, the first thing I do daily, is to peruse the FR AKA Federal Register for items of interest to my organization. This info is published daily at the Govt Printing Office (GPO) website. It just so happens that it is also where the CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) is published. (here’s the link if you wish to check ). If I should be on the Dept of Justice site please let me know (as most of the GPO published regs refer to entities receiving fed funds).

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/cfr/index.html

I’ve searched the site and all of the CFR regulations that I found so far begins with or contains the words “no person” (as in no person shall be discriminated based on….)
Not “no Black person” or “no Green person” or “no person of this particular group, list, etc”. Just the 2 words, “no person”. I can’t interpret that to mean anything but no person…..now theses regs do refer to entities receiving fed funds and not necessarily private business so please feel free to steer me to the appropriate site where these Federal laws that discriminate against you, exist.

I’m not entirely clear by what your middle sentence meant and I’m no lawyer but I’d bet good money that your analysis of my legal impact is incorrect and I’m pretty sure that saying anything in court that is not true is considered perjury.
From my admittedly limited understanding perjury (if it is even known to be so at the time), is not usually stricken from the record, striking statements from the court record is usually reserved for unqualified opinions, hearsay, inflammatory statements, etc (but remember, I’m no lawyer and since this whole paragraph is speculation, it should probably be stricken;-)

You also stated that no examples of reverse discrimination could be found in the news. The recently published NY Times article I submitted, refutes that. And I am sad to say,
I didn’t have to search long for it.

If you can please provide examples or links to the laws that you speak of that uphold these injustices to YOUR rights, I would be most interested in reading them, apologizing to you and maybe even send an email to a PAC like move.org to get the ball rolling on reestablishing YOUR rights as a US citizen getting your bread (so to speak). And if you can also point me to the law about the 2 Words you spoke of, I’d really like to read that!

Until then, the only 2 Words that really matter 2 me are, “no person”…….


Go Loco
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Tue Oct 17 2006 08:51 PM
172.132.214.238
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin t hell in a hand basket , part 2

Oh as in “no person shall be discriminated against because of race....., sexual preference......, religion.....? Webster saying “the act of discriminating, the process by which two stimuli differing in some aspect are responded to differently.” Of course it goes on about ‘reverse discrimination’ also.

You think it possible to organize a White History Month? A White Folks College Fund? Would Six Flags allow us to celebrate Straight Day? Could we sue NBC for not having enough white people on a TV show? Could there be a White Entertainment Network on cable?
If a construction BTW, congratulations on your promotions, in all sproject is funded by government money all contracts state that “the workforce must be comprised of at least 16.9% minorities, half of which must be women.” “Labor or materials which are provided by sub-contract must have at least 20% minorities participation.” Therefore it is legal to have a workforce of 100% ‘purple’ women.
I know that most contracts of any kind funded by government money have similar stipulations.
Nothing guarantees a job to a white man (other than somebody has to work.)
And congratulations on your promotions, seriously.


Mike4
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Wed Oct 18 2006 09:04 AM
64.80.98.165
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin t hell in a hand basket , part 2

Webster also defines “white as the absence of color” but like your example of Webster’s definition of discrimination, neither definition applies to the present discussion of your perceived lack of civil rights and the laws that you claim to restrict and discriminate against you. In the eyes of the law, white is a color too….

And again, you focus your argument on the lack of labeled holiday’s, causes, and funds for White people while you overlook the simple mathematics and deductions that are as follows. For example, if you take away the months that focus on a particular minorities history (say, Black, Asian, Hispanic, etc) at most how many are we talking? Say 6? That leaves 6 other months that history is and will continue to be taught from a Eurocentric perspective (i,e White history, if you will).

Apply the same argument to college funding, it’s a drop in the financial bucket. And if you see injustice to white people in the United Negro College then how do you feel about legacy appointments and folks who get into a great school, not because of their academic achievements but who their father was and how much he donated to build a particular wing?

TV? No all white shows? Plenty of shows out there where you don’t have to see a minority. (Don’t ya’ll miss all but the last season of Friends?) I loved Cheers and damn! It was all white! I still love Fraser reruns!! But I digress;-) Sorry I don’t know the names of any new minority-free TV shows since I’ve been trying to curtail my TV time and study more music (but seriously, I can take an evening to find you some recommended suitable viewing ).

Anyway, I know I won’t be changing your mind about what upsets you in this life but I can only hope to offer the readers of this topic an alternative and valid and positive opinion on who ISN’T to blame for this country’s problems and your oppression.

peace


DrumsUp
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Fri Oct 27 2006 08:35 PM
64.10.154.143
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin t hell in a han

I just don't get it! What does skin colour have to do with anything? I am personally of mixed heritage including Scottish, Irish, English, Welsh, Spanish, and Native American.... Make that Canadian. Am I supposed to hate myself? Can't we accept each other as humans and therefore equals? Can't we make room for new ideas? After all, the drumset we play is a relatively "new" idea being less than a hundred years old.

Wisdom is better than weapons...


Mike4
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Tue Oct 31 2006 04:55 PM
64.80.98.165
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin t hell in a han

It's great that you don't get it. Let's hope you never do.

I'll assume that the rest of your reply is rhetorical and admire your sentiment for the positivity it projects. Teach it to your children.....


Go Loco
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Tue Dec 12 2006 09:50 PM
172.162.85.25
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin t hell in a han

Mike4, You are taking averages and statistics into this. I was not stating there are no or not enough TV shows, colleges, charities and so on, with whites only. The problem I have it that the government “mandates” set-asides for minorities. They (government laws, code of regulations, stipulations) demand “Guarantees” for minorities (you may read ‘to be given a chance’ here but I won’t) to be included in the day to day operations of the commercial dealings of the people of the United States.
(Continuation of explanation of problem) and Nothing Guarantees Caucasians, Whites, Me, heterosexuals, law abiding 100% citizens, Anything.
BTW I never saw an episode of Friends or Cheers so I have no opinion of them. I do watch the Chappelle Show often though, but that doesn’t have anything to do with anything.
As far as who is to blame? I have no idea. I didn’t start this to come up with a solution. Just wanted to start some s--t I reckon. Worked, didn’t it!Holten?


Mike4
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Wed Dec 13 2006 10:03 AM
64.80.98.165
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin t hell in a han

Jeez, are you still dwelling on this? One example with the numbers 6 & 12 and I'm bringing in averages and statistics? It's obvious that your gonna' hold onto whatever it takes to confirm that your being denied your rights and your perception of who's to blame has been pretty clear throughout this conversation (especially since everybody not white is not a 100% law abiding citizen- hmmm). So hey! You win, your right, it's your world, and it's definitely you're right to feel what you feel.

But also note, this exchange started because you say you lost your job to minority set asides. And given the seriousness of a person's lively hood I don't make the next statement lightly but, if you expressed yourself on or around the job and it's employees like you do here, your employer may have taken the opportunity to get rid of a potential(if not already on-going) problem with your views seeing that you were in a position of authority over other people and a walking eeoc investigation waiting to happen

now relax and try to take what joy out of life and the upcoming holidays that you can...

or not.


Ratamatatt
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Wed Dec 13 2006 10:18 AM
75.74.96.88
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin t hell in a han

LMAO!

Go Loco
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Tue Jan 09 2007 09:20 PM
172.135.50.118
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin t hell in a han

No, the company didn't get rid of me LOL, the company went broke because of the stuff. But yeah, you are right it is my world. The white people won it, my problem is the bleedin heart liberals that are givin it away.

tainteddrummer
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Sat Jan 13 2007 04:27 PM
70.44.45.122
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin t hell in a han

Quote:



You think it possible to organize a White History Month? A White Folks College Fund? Would Six Flags allow us to celebrate Straight Day? Could we sue NBC for not having enough white people on a TV show? Could there be a White Entertainment Network on cable?
If a construction BTW, congratulations on your promotions, in all sproject is funded by government money all contracts state that “the workforce must be comprised of at least 16.9% minorities, half of which must be women.” “Labor or materials which are provided by sub-contract must have at least 20% minorities participation.” Therefore it is legal to have a workforce of 100% ‘purple’ women.
I know that most contracts of any kind funded by government money have similar stipulations.
Nothing guarantees a job to a white man (other than somebody has to work.)
And congratulations on your promotions, seriously.





i think i heard that someone in boston tried to make a white american scholarship and ppl went ape on him. a mayor somewhere in pennsylvania wanted to make his town/ (or county) english speaking only. so .. if you can't speak english your f-ed i think he did pull it off too... people hated him for it though.


i think if everyone wants so badly to be equal there should be no minority quota in jobs (everyone has = chance in getting a job) in fact .. the job should ALWAYS go to the most qualified. not go to a lesser qualified person to fill a rediculous quota.

there should be no specialized scholarships for different races. (why can someone get a scholarship just for having a different skin color???) let them get scholarships from the schools and for getting good grades like everyone else.

tv channels? each race get their own channel? it still seems like a concept that keeps things separated. there's people of all races on the regular channels. get rid of b.e.t because it seems like special treatment to me.

all races and genders should get = pay for a particular job's wages. no less or more for being black, white, male.

sorry for my ramble.


tainteddrummer
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Sat Jan 13 2007 04:31 PM
70.44.45.122
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin t hell in a han

aboutmy last post.. if i sounded racist .. it wasn't intended. i just mean that if everyone wants to be equal .. it should be equal. we don't have equal rights like they say we do. rich get benefits over the poor. minorities over majorities. (though it seems english speaking caucasion is becomming the minority ... )

Alistair
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Sun Jan 14 2007 06:09 AM
210.55.81.197
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin t hell in a han

No disrespect intended, but how much do you know about your own country's history?
All that seems to be happening is that the pendulum is starting to swing the other way, and some of the minorities need a hand to reach the starting line. In NZ we have separate Maori scholarships, a tv station, etc. This is only a recent development after 160 years of white state control (banning the use of Maori language, taking land from Maori for European settlement by various means and so on).
Having said that, I agree that jobs etc need to go to the most qualified individual... but on the other hand, minorities need role models to look up to.
This seems to be a purely white left wing reaction - take recent events in the UK where MP's were sending each other 'holiday' cards, without any mention of the word Christmas. These MP's believed it would offend Muslims, Hindus etc to use the word Xmas, but did they ask them if they were offended? Heck no! The Muslim leader they asked was looking forward to a few days public holiday...
So, what I am saying is, don't be so protective of what you perceive as 'your rights' - no-one is out to squash you.


juze
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Fri Jan 19 2007 11:47 PM
213.107.12.209
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin t hell in a han

Quote:

No, the company didn't get rid of me LOL, the company went broke because of the stuff. But yeah, you are right it is my world. The white people won it, my problem is the bleedin heart liberals that are givin it away.



"The white people won it"? From whom? The native Americans? Who, from all the old John Wayne films etc that I've viewed were called by the derogatory name "Redskins", armed only with bows and arrows to defend THEIR country from gun happy settlers! It doesn't sound very "Fair" to me. According to the history books it was taken by force and the indiginous population were forced to become the "Minority" on their own land!!
Does this mean if squatters were to force entry into our homes whilst we were out, that by right, they would have "WON" the privilage to claim it as their own?
We live in a multi-racial world, the only way around it would be for everyone to return to their ancestral birthplace, (and stay there), It begs the question as to where most of us would end up living!!!!


DrumsUp
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Mon Jan 22 2007 01:02 PM
64.10.154.211
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin t hell in a han

I couldn't agree more Juze! The trouble is, as you stated, "...It begs the question as to where most of us would end up living!!!" I think I'd need a few passports since I am of Welsh, (like you)Irish, Scottish, British, Spanish, and Native Canadian ancestry. Can Haggis be made with a Buffalo stomach...?

Isn't it time we began to realize that we are ALL human and therefore alike?


Tea Bag
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Fri Jan 26 2007 12:00 PM
142.46.212.62
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin t hell in a han

Quote:

..It begs the question as to where most of us would end up living!!!" I think I'd need a few passports since I am of Welsh, (like you)Irish, Scottish, British, Spanish, and Native Canadian ancestry. Can Haggis be made with a Buffalo stomach...?



LOL!

I haven't been following this whole thread, but I must say that getting laid off or whatever tends to bring alot of feelings to the surface.. its natural to play the blame game.. like that manager only kept his/her 'friends' and fired everyone else; or whatever bugaboo you can think of. The best recourse is to put it behind you and find a new job.
Like they say in that movie "Change is good donkey!"


Ratamatatt
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Thu Feb 08 2007 01:33 PM
75.74.96.88
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin t hell in a han

Quote:

No, the company didn't get rid of me LOL, the company went broke because of the stuff. But yeah, you are right it is my world. The white people won it, my problem is the bleedin heart liberals that are givin it away.




Yup! Go Loco went loco, or more descriptively: cookoo, cookoo, cookoo . . . !


Go Loco
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Mon Jun 04 2007 08:32 PM
74.128.83.31
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin t hell in a han

Rat, you don't know anything about this so lie down again ok? go look for some welfare cheese

DrumsUp
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Tue Jun 19 2007 10:04 AM
64.10.154.230
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin t hell in a han

Anger begets anger...

KickItIn
(Tiger Talk Trainee)
Wed Dec 05 2007 05:23 AM
70.109.207.175
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

"the goverment thinks we can be supressed with SUV's, plasma screen-tv's, and material **** like that."
Yes; it's bread and circuses. Would you consider supporting Dr. Ron Paul? He is the return of the citizen-statesman, and respects the rights, responsibilities (and income) of the individual.
Though I would like a plasma tv. :)


Go Loco
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Wed Dec 12 2007 08:42 PM
74.129.189.210
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

Who is Ron Paul? I'd go for some plasma too.

awfulldrummer
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Wed Dec 12 2007 08:54 PM
71.192.98.134
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

i have a plasma it's freaking awesome!!! i used to have an suv, but i'm sick of them! if you have to say who is Ron Paul, then he ain't worth voting for!!!!

Go Loco
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Sun Dec 30 2007 08:03 PM
74.129.189.210
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

LMMFAO! Happy New Year Kids!
Wasn't Ron Paul a black transvestite?


Ratamatatt
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Thu Jan 10 2008 11:45 AM
76.18.20.232
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

Quote:

LMMFAO! Happy New Year Kids!
Wasn't Ron Paul a black transvestite?




Maybe! But then, so is Rudy Giulliani!


awfulldrummer
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Thu Jan 10 2008 10:00 PM
71.192.98.134
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

Quote:

Quote:

LMMFAO! Happy New Year Kids!
Wasn't Ron Paul a black transvestite?




Maybe! But then, so is Rudy Giulliani!




sick! but funny.


ALS
(Tiger Talk Trainee)
Sat Jul 05 2008 09:24 AM
71.127.211.73
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

YOU ARE A BRAINLESS IMBICILE ! I HAVE A CHALLENGE FOR YOU. NAME A COUNTRY YOU HATE MORE THAN AMERICA ! AND I HAVE A DARE FOR YOU. NAME A COUNTRY YOU THINK IS BETTER AND MOVE YOUR WASTE OF HUMAN FLESH THERE. I DARE YOU. BUT I KNOW YOU WON'T BECAUSE YOU ARE A LIBERAL. AND LIBERALS ARE GUTLESS COWARDS WHO CAN WHINE AND CRY LIKE SISSYBOYS BUT RUN LIKE YELLOWBELLIES WHEN CONFRONTED. I FOUGHT FOR MY COUNTRY AND STILL BEAR THE SCARS. IF YOU HAD TO FIGHT FOR ANYTHING YOU WOULD RUN AWAY. I FEEL SORRY FOR ANY FAMILY MEMBERS WHO MIGHT NEED YOU FOR SECURITY. WHY DON'T YOU GO TO HELL IN THE HANDBASKET YOU MENTIONED. THERE IS ONE THING YOU WILL NEVER BE...A MAN !

ALS
(Tiger Talk Trainee)
Sat Jul 05 2008 10:05 AM
71.127.211.73
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

YOUR FACTS SOUND SO GOOD THEIR ALMOST BELIEVEABLE. IF ALL THE VOTER FRAUD YOU TALK ABOUT REALLY HAPPENED, DON'T YOU THINK THE DEMOCRATS( THE INVENTORS OF VOTER FRAUD) WOULD ACCEPT THE RESULTS. NO WAY. AND BT THE WAY, HOW COME YOU DIDN'T MENTION CHICAGO IN THE JFK ELECTION? IT IS NOW ON THE PUBLIC RECORD THAT ENOUGH VOTES WERE CAST FOR THE DEMOCRATIC TICKET BY PEOPLE THAT WERE DEAD, IT ALLOWED JFK TO WIN CHICAGO AND THUS CARRY THE WHOLE STATE OF ILLINOIS AND WIN THE ELECTION FOR PRESIDENT. THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WANTED NIXON TO DEMAND A RECOUNT BUT HE REFUSED,SAYING IT COULD DO SERIOUS HARM TO THE COUNTRY. YOU REMEMBER NIXON...THE ONE YOU HATE SO MUCH. THE ONE THAT ENDED THE VIETNAM WAR THAT THE DEMOCRATS GOT US INTO. THE ONE THAT ENDED THE DRAFT.THE ONE THAT SIGNED THE LEGISLATION TO FORM THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY. WHEN ANYONE MENTIONS NIXON,ALL THE SHOUT IS "WATERGATE" . NIXON RESIGNED SO AS NOT TO FACE IMPEACHMENT. HIS "CRIME" WAS NOT THE WATERGATE BREAK-IN. IT WAS BEING ON TV AND LYING TO THE PEOPLE BY SAYING "I DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT IT" GOLLY GOSH...SOME YEARS LATER A DEMOCRAT WENT ON TV AND SAID "I DIDN'T DODGE THE DRAFT"..."I DIDN'T SMOKE POT"..."I DIDN'T HAVE SEX WITH THAT WOMAN" BUT OF COURSE,IF YOU'RE A DEMOCRAT,LYING IS THE NORM. IN FACT,IT'S EXPECTED BEHAVIOR.

ALS
(Tiger Talk Trainee)
Sun Jul 06 2008 10:35 AM
71.125.80.91
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO TRUTH IN ANY OF YOUR STATEMENTS. WERE DO YOU GET YOUR FACTS FROM ?

ALS
(Tiger Talk Trainee)
Sun Jul 06 2008 11:05 AM
71.127.195.225
Re: I'm afraid our country is goin ti hell in a hand basket , part 2

JUST SOME INFORMATION FOR THE UNEDUCATED. OUR COUNTRY IS A REPUBLIC. YOU SEEM TO THINK THAT ALL THE ILLS ARE THE FAULT OF THE REPUBLICANS. FOR YOUR INFO,THE DEMOCRATS CONTROLLED CONGRESS FROM 1942(WHEN FDR WAS PRESIDENT) ALL THE WAY UP TO GEORGE BUSH SR'S ELECTION. REPUBLICANS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN FOR SMALL GOV'T. AND DEMOCRATS ARE FOR BIG GOV'T. ALL THIS NONSENSE ABOUT REPUBLICANS CONTROLLED BY BIG BUSINESS IS JUST THAT...NONSENSE. THE DEMOCRATS HAVE THEIR FINGERS ENTRENCHED IN THE BANKING AND CREDIT CARD INDUSTRIES. EVEN BIG BUSINESS HAS TO RELY ON THEM FOR LOANS AND CREDIT. ONE THING TO REMEMBER...YES, CORPORATE BIG WIGS ARE GREEDY THIEVES BUT THEY HAVE NO ALLEGENCE TO ANY POLITICAL PART