bear45
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Sat Dec 27 2003 09:05 PM
64.252.77.13
Moeller vs Gladstone ?

Is there any difference between the Billy Glastone method and the Sanford Moeller method?

worst episode ever
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Sat Dec 27 2003 09:08 PM
82.32.241.29
Re: Moeller vs Gladstone ?

i would also like to know this [Big Grin]

BuddysRich
(Tiger Talk Trainee)
Sun Dec 28 2003 07:13 PM
209.226.118.88
Re: Moeller vs Gladstone ?

Yes there is a huge difference. I'm sorry I can't explain either one of those very well, however there is a section on the Gladstone technique on Tigers site. I would like to hear what the moeller(sp?) is. I have an idea and i always hear "you cant learn it from words on the internet" which is probably right. I bet you's need a teacher to get a good idea of it and be adequite (SP?) at it.

Since this is kind of like "the technique thread" il write my question here: Has anyone heard of different grips, if so please name them and if you can, please attempt to describe them or give me a link please.

thnx for reading all of that (to those who did).


bear45
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Sun Dec 28 2003 07:39 PM
64.252.77.13
Re: Moeller vs Gladstone ?

Now I am not sure. Jim Chapin studied under Sanford Moeller in the late 30's. Joe Morello studied under (after George Stone - Stick Control) Billy Gladstone.

A few years back I touched base with a teacher for some technique lessons. I believe what he showed me was being touted by Morello (and if my memory serves me, the teacher had studied with Morello, I know he studied with Chapin, because this was on Long Island and Chapin stopped off once a week in the same shop to teach.)

Anyway seems that there is a way you grip the stip that is very loose, you can take your other hand and pull on the stick and it will slip right out. Fingers guide the stick. You control the bounce. (no pillow practice here) All downward motions like bouncing a ball, no lifting of the stick. I think you let the stick come up higher so on the next stroke you are using gravity and a longer stroke to bring it down for an accent. THink thats how it went. This is a very natural way of playing and only involves downward force. Easy, let the stick bounce off the drum.

Never understood this "REal FeeL" practice pad action because I never remember hitting a drum that feels like that. Oh well, I didnt play much and it has been years.

If you can explain a difference that would be appreciated.

I remember the old standard texts in the old days had you LIFT the stick up and of course there was practice with the pillow (no bounce) and for a while I had a Moon Gel practice pad NO BOUNCE and I loved praciticing on it. You develop monster chops that way, but today it seems to be vogue to go for these 'natural' methods.


bear45
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Sun Dec 28 2003 07:53 PM
64.252.77.13
Re: Moeller vs Gladstone ?

By the way here's another thing that drives me nuts. In this method I described, a drummer plays with PALMS down to the surface.(I am now practicing with matched grip) Some drummers play with palms facing each other and thumbs up so it is essentially a finger action. (I have seen a video of Greg Bissonette playing this way and I think Greg is killer!)
A classic drummer with conventional grip, such as Joe Morello played back in the 60's in the "take 5" era, is usually seen with the left hand in traditional poise with the stick through the thumb palm up and the stick then going between the third and fourth finger (or actually the 2nd and 3rd finger, the thumb I guess is a thumb not a finger You know the traditional grip) The right hand is sortof palm down, but when the drummer goes to the ride cymbal its 'thumb up'.

I have talked to certain younger drummers (younger than me because the 60s was my era) one guy who was said to be really doing some nice things said that I should learn to flip the hands over so I am playing thumbs up palms towards each other, He said one can play faster.

I am still totally confused. Comments appreciated.

Havent done this in decades. How should I be practicing for the ride cymbal, palm down or palm side ways (or both?)


BuddysRich
(Tiger Talk Trainee)
Sun Dec 28 2003 09:45 PM
209.226.118.88
Re: Moeller vs Gladstone ?

The technique you described in the first reply was the gladstone. There are a lot of different grips, I'l explain three, one is the French, then German and then American. Now don't get mad if I'm wrong on this little part ok? The french grip is where your thumbs are up and your palms are pointing at each other, I'm pretty sure that this is the fastest way to play (at least out of these three grips, but it depends on what you practice) because your fingers are on the bottom so you can use them more effectively for faster playing. Then theres German grip, opposite of the French grip, thumbs to the side, palms down. I think that thsi is more of a wrist grip (but then again I'm not the expert). Then the American grip is in between both, there is no right or wrong grips, it's whatever is most comfortable or fastest or just whichever one you like best.

The reason that the druimmer that plays palms down with the Gladstone method (I think thats what you said), is because the Gladstone is more of a wrist technique, well at least when you are going slower or up until you can't go any faster it's a wrist technique, then I think it switches to fingers.

I didn't know that I could write that much on something I don't really know much about.


bear45
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Sun Dec 28 2003 09:52 PM
64.252.77.13
Re: Moeller vs Gladstone ?

Thank you. I think you have given me enough to go on. I will research this. I have heard the term French grip before.

"Half way in between" for the American grip makes some sense to me. Thanks again.

Hey, maybe next time I sign in to a drum forum I will call myself BUDDY POOR!


BuddysRich
(Tiger Talk Trainee)
Sun Dec 28 2003 10:12 PM
209.226.118.88
Re: Moeller vs Gladstone ?

Now why would you do that? I'm not sayen it's bad I was just curious. So how was your x-mas? ( I have nothing else to do) What did u get?

Iguana
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Mon Dec 29 2003 02:25 AM
24.94.247.94
Re: Moeller vs Gladstone ?

I won't try to explain how to do a proper moeller stroke . It's waaaaayyyy to complex for just words . The idea is to generate a great deal of down force with the wrist , then let the natural rebound take care of the next 3 or four strokes . While I'm no master of the moeller stroke I do understand the idea . What I don't get is , where to use it !

bear45
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Mon Dec 29 2003 07:26 AM
64.252.77.13
Re: Moeller vs Gladstone ?

To Buddysrich: I was just kidding about Buddypoor, what I meant was that I was not blessed with the talent he has, but on the other hand we are ALL RICH, for enjoying the talents of Buddy and having him and some others around. In the meantime I, for one, will labor over technique for the rest of my life.

I played in a garage bands in the 60s and managed to play out a bit with some rock, but mostly an arm chair enthusiast. I get the urge now and then and am picking up the sticks again. I am SERIOUS about practicing and playing again, though.

A pal of mine from where I used to live who played drums and I conversed for Christmas and are motivating each other with the music thing. Chrismas was quiet but good here.

Iquana: From what you describe, the Moeller thing goes on from the Gladstone thing, both techniques control bounce. Have to dig in to that one, it sounds strange. Sounds like when I really pressed into the drum head when I got on it and forced the sticks into the head, and then it was just controlling the rebounds. The Moeller book is available and I just found an on line source for it and there is a comment about the book that there is one principle in the Moeller technique that most dont know about in that the PINKIE is the only thing that firmly grips the stick. All this is interesting. Guess there is no one techique/grip that is best for everyone. Tell you what, playing without the benefit of an experienced teacher was not good for me, I played with a LOT of tension in the grip. No discipline. When I sat there and noodled and showed somebody something I did some nice things, when I actually played I tensed up with everything including the hands. NO NO. Hindsight is 20/20. Other thing is I tend to hold the sticks back to far. Tomorrow is the first day of the rest of our lives.

I get the impression from all the stuff I have read and heard about Buddy Rich over the years that he utilized different techniques. He put us on a lot about things. He says he never practiced but that was in later years, I remember at least one prominent drummer/teacher mentioning that they got to a point where they didnt need to practice. But I heard anecdotes about Buddy back in the early times practicing eight hours a day and the bit about practicing on the pillow, NO BOUNCE. Recently I have read that Buddy mentions that he LIFTS the stick and controls the stick with his hands not let the drum control it. I think what happens in practice is a combination of the strict techniques of Gladstone,etc with the control of the bounce and total control of the hands as in NO BOUNCE.

Got to get me another one of those MOON GEL practice pads! HMMMM but in the mean time I will pick up a Real Feel this weekend.

In going back and reading the Monster Chops series that TigerBill put on the site, I think that the system has merit but needs a lot of discipline to put into motion.

Do I sound more confused than when I started?

Need to find more information about the AMERICAN GRIP. Hope someone can help here.

Hope every one had a great Christmas!


Iguana
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Mon Dec 29 2003 03:17 PM
24.94.247.94
Re: Moeller vs Gladstone ?

You hit it on the one Bear . The way I'm learning it , the Moeller requires a relaxed grip and a loose , natural feel . I started hearing about the two techniques almost at the same time I started playing (lucky I guess ) . At the end of the day , a great techique that doesn't suit you is a waste of time .

Ratamatatt
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Mon Dec 29 2003 03:24 PM
65.80.22.183
Re: Moeller vs Gladstone ?

quote:
Originally posted by bear45:
Is there any difference between the Billy Glastone method and the Sanford Moeller method?

In a nutshell, the Gladstone method maximizes the natural rebound of the stick so that you can play faster and longer and remain relaxed. There is no upstroke, only downstrokes. You basically throw the stick down on the drumhead while keeping the fingers, hand and wrist so relaxed that the rebound bounces the stick back up which pulls the hand up. It takes some practice at slow tempos to learn it correctly. Tiger Bill's "building monster chops" lessons tell you everything you need to know.

The Moeller method is a whipping action that involves both a downstroke and an upstroke OF THE HAND. The point is to generate multiple stick strokes with a single hand stroke. Again it takes practice to get the fingers, hands and wrists to remain relaxed enough to allow multiple stick strokes.

Hint: Almost all drummers use the Moeller method while playing a grove on the high hats even if they don't realize it. You whip the stick down on the high hat striking the edge of the hats with the shoulder of the stick - that's a downstroke with the hand and the stick. Then while your hand is on the upstroke you let your wrist flop down so that the tip of the stick comes down and hits the top hat while the hand is on the upstroke. That's two stick strokes with a single hand stroke. You can play 3, 4 or more stick stokes with a single hand stroke.

From what I've seen, the Moeller method is most useful as an accenting technique. Check out Jim Chapin's video "Speed, Power, Control & Endurance."

I think the Gladstone and Moeller methods work perfectly together. Picture playing a fast single stroke roll using the Gladstone "rebound" technique. Then suppose you want to play some accents. For each accented note, the hand comes up (with the wrist totally limp and the stick pointing down) and then whips the stick down onto the drumhead.

Hope this was helpful.


bear45
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Mon Dec 29 2003 04:54 PM
64.252.77.13
Re: Moeller vs Gladstone ?

Ratamat.......now it's getting there, thanks.
You have helped!

I will have to view the Chapin video.

Now if you could answer another question.

What does the Joe Morello video have in it that I can also get something out of. Are they going to have conflicting things?


TigerBillAdministrator
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Mon Dec 29 2003 07:50 PM
65.40.123.228
Re: Moeller vs Gladstone ?

To add a couple of my own observations on the Gladstone vs. Moeller dilemma, don't worry so much about the exact grip you use (French, German, American). If you really break it down, you'll realize that you use all 3 (at various times) as you move around the drumset.

In a nutshell (and in my approach to playing), I apply the Gladstone technique to all strokes played and I employ a modified Moeller method for certain styles of accenting.

Much more detail will be found in my upcoming book and DVD on Monster Chops. [Cool]


bear45
(Tiger Talk Pro)
Mon Dec 29 2003 09:39 PM
64.252.77.13
Re: Moeller vs Gladstone ?

Cool, TB!

I pretty much figured what you said here, after thinking through all this.

I'll look forward to new the stuff!

Thanks all~!


Robin123
(Tiger Talk Trainee)
Wed Oct 11 2006 05:58 AM
70.183.6.162
Re: Moeller vs Gladstone ?

This is a fascinating subject - my research and practice has led me to these conclusions: The key to the Gladstone technique is that the hand propels the stick down very quickly (even if you are playing very slowly); and you must relax your grip (whatever grip you use) so that the stick rebounds without any motion on your part. Therefore, you make only one motion - down stick. Dom Famularo's book "It's your move" is the best resource for explaining this. Jim Chapin calls it "stop at the top"; Joe Morello calls it the "full stroke" or the "free stroke" It's all about getting the stick to rebound back by itself. That's why you have to "throw" the stick down very fast. The faster you throw it, the more energy it will have and the greater the rebound force. Now the "Gladstone" technique also implies two other concepts: upstrokes/downstrokes (control strokes) and stick height. Again, check Dom Famularo's book or Joe Morello's DVD for this.

So what is the Moeller technique: the whiping motion. Juim Chapin's video gives the best lessons on it.

The biggest and most important technique that you need to incorporate into BOTH the Moeller and Gladstone methods concerns the fingers.

The most important thing that I discovered was that you have to use all of these techniques together with the fingers in order to make them really work.

I found that the fingers really help you get much more rebound when you throw the stick down.

So what is the finger technique (which all these other techniques are strangely silent about)? I only found 1 book that covers this subject in any depth: "Technique Petters" by Gary Chaffee.

Now what about the grip or hold. Don't get hung up on it. You can use differnt types of grips and fulcrums and different fingers. The key is to relax your hand, and work on techniques that give you a good bounce. I am oversimplying it, but if you keep in mind the key points: throwing down with speed and power to get rebounding force, and always trying to relax the hands and minimize tension, you can teach yourself alot as you work through basic snare drum exercises, rudiments, etc. Get a copy of George Stone's "Stick Control" and just start working through the simple exercises while you incorpoate these techniques: I.e. Gladstone "free stroke", Moeller "whipping" and the "fingers"



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