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RAPPONDRUM
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Reged: Sep 22 2003
Posts: 13
Loc: VIRGINIA
New Electronic Controller
      #24687 - Thu Sep 25 2003 07:42 PM (68.49.122.238)

I’m very impressed with the discussions on electronic percussion. James Walker seems to hold a very open view to new instruments. Because of this, I’m encouraged to start this conversation.

First my background - 4 years of study in College on snare drum with Dr. John Floyd.
Elec. Engineering degree From Va. Tech.
30 years experience (Semi-Pro) playing Rock, Jazz and Percussion Ensembles, mostly Acoustic but recently Electronic. 35 years experience singing & vocalizing.

I own a TrapKat and a DrumKat, and I have experimented with various layouts of chromatic and scalar notes, and chords assigned to the pads.

Four 12 years, I’ve been thinking about a very different kind of percussion controller, and I keep coming back to this question: would mallet percussionists be artistically interested?

I’ve spoken on the phone with one of engineers from one of the three electronic mallet percussion manufactures mentioned elsewhere, but it is clear to me that unless there is real interest among percussionists this idea will never get produced.

The Current Model: The layout of all the current mallet percussion controllers are like the piano keyboard (white and black notes).

Different Model: To me it seems more natural to play when the pads are set out like a guitar’s Fretboard.

A few details: There would be 4 to 6 rows of pads. In each row, the adjacent pad is always a chromatic step. Perhaps there could be pads covering 2 ½ Octaves.
Across the rows, Adjacent pads could be tuned like standard tuning on a guitar, or perhaps open tuning, or perfect fourths, whatever….
Only the lowest note of each row would need to be programmed (since all the rest ascend chromatically).

An Appeal to the Manufacturers: The rows could be manufactured just like the "White Notes" are on the controllers today (just leave off the black notes). Perhaps the rows could be available in sets of 2 or 4 or 6, which allows for expansion the same way the current models can be expanded by one or two octaves.

Is this appropriate for a poll?

Thanks,

Rapp on Drum


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James WalkerModerator
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Reged: Mar 18 2002
Posts: 1283
Loc: Connecticut
Re: New Electronic Controller
      #24688 - Fri Sep 26 2003 10:11 PM (67.75.112.164)

Wow - neat stuff! I'm going to have to print out what you've written, so I can read it away from the computer and digest it a little bit better.

I won't speak for anyone else, but as someone who doubles on steel pan, I'm certainly open to note arrangements other than the traditional "3+2" keyboard setup.

I also know one or two people who have experimented to one degree or another with "6+6" keyboard layouts. There's one in particular, I'll have to send him a link to this thread and see if I can get him involved in the board.

Great stuff, thanks for bringing it to the board's attention - I can't wait to read some more!


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James WalkerModerator
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Reged: Mar 18 2002
Posts: 1283
Loc: Connecticut
Re: New Electronic Controller
      #24689 - Fri Sep 26 2003 11:12 PM (67.75.102.82)

The vibist I made reference to earlier:

http://www.roypertchik.com/

(...click on the architectural icon, and on the next page follow the link to go to the "music" page.)

Roy commissioned his 6+6 vibraphone from Nico vanderPlas.

I've also run the 6+6 idea past Will Wernick, creator of the Xylosynth, and he is at least open to the idea (at least, he was when I mentioned it to him earlier this year). At the very least, it is something that he *could* do, given that he usually builds instruments one at a time for each new customer.


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RAPPONDRUM
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Reged: Sep 22 2003
Posts: 13
Loc: VIRGINIA
Re: New Electronic Controller
      #24690 - Sat Sep 27 2003 09:35 AM (68.49.122.238)

James,

Thanks for the reply.

Dr. Floyd always encouraged me to discover new instruments in the things around us. I've been think hard about this idea for a long time. It seems to me the underlying technology for it is feasable today.

I have many musical friends that play both guitar and drums. I think the Percussive Fret board would open a new mode of performance to many musicians like them. It is just hard for me to tell how many people will be interested in the new format.

Perhaps I could draw a few pictures for people to digest. Would that help?

Rapp on drum


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James WalkerModerator
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Reged: Mar 18 2002
Posts: 1283
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Re: New Electronic Controller
      #24691 - Sat Sep 27 2003 10:58 AM (67.75.117.69)

Rapp,

Have you ever investigated the Chapman Stick? In my "I wish I was a bass player" moments, I often look at that instrument, since tapping (in other words, a percussive technique) is so much a part of the Stick.

I don't know if it would ever have MIDI capabilities, but I was reminded of it as I re-read this thread this morning.

Are you thinking of something played with the fingers (a la the Stick), or something still using mallets, but using a fretboard-style layout?


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Roy Pertchik
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Reged: Sep 27 2003
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Re: New Electronic Controller
      #24692 - Sat Sep 27 2003 09:30 PM (204.74.0.22)

Hi Rapondrum, and all,

I'm Roy Peertchik. I received an e-mail from James Walker, whom I know from thevibe.net, telling me about this thread. James is familliar with my instrument, which you may find interesting. I invented a chromatic vibraphone colored with three colors, patented the idea, and commisioned one to be built by Nico vanderPlas of Holland. I have been playing the three color chromatic vibraphone seriously for about 10 months now. Many people have experimented with chromatic instruments before me, including various versions of the Janko piano keyboard, which has four to six rows of keys, like the notion you described, Rapondrum. The multiple rows are necessary to overcome some fingering difficulties that arise from a chromatic keyboard. The chromatic mallet instrument does not suffer from these difficulties, so only two rows are necessary. But finding your place on a chromatic keyboard presents a problem, so I devised a system using three colors. The system enables the notes to be rcognized, yet preserves the symetry of the twelve note scale. You can see my instrument at
http://users.rcn.com/roypertchik/2ndPage/Music/theory1.htm
You may also find it interesting to search for "Janko piano", as there are a lot of refferences on line . You may also like to look at Star Labs instruments for other controllers that offer chromatic possibilities.
http://catalog.com/starrlab/
You will learn that only my keyboard design offers the feature of representing the theory behind the music of the twelve note scale in all it's symetric beauty. I encourage you to investigate further and look forward to hearing your thoughts.


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RAPPONDRUM
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Reged: Sep 22 2003
Posts: 13
Loc: VIRGINIA
Re: New Electronic Controller
      #24693 - Sun Sep 28 2003 10:53 PM (68.49.122.238)

About the Stick: I have not tried it. I think this could be an interesting direction to take.
I have tapped out bass lines using a DrumKat. The note dynamics using sticks are different; there is a wonderful articulate musicality. However, with the DrumKat, I had to preprogram every pad for the correct note, and then memorize a non-standard note position pattern for every song. I found the DrumKat approach quickly became impractical for me.

Tapping vs. Mallets: I’m thinking primarily of using sticks or mallets on the fret-board layout, because of the enhanced articulation and the ability to use bounced strokes. Playing by hand (or finger) might be a secondary technique.

Roy’s chromatic instrument is very clever. I really see how this could save people a lot of time learning the scalar patterns. The three color system nicely solves the reference problem. The 6 + 6 twelve note symmetry is appealing, and makes me think this could be a very good layout for improvisation or soloing. Also, Roy’s invention can accommodate real acoustic instruments.

I think the percussive fret-board is still different because of the ability to form chords or runs vertically as well as horizontally.

Starr labs seems to be fairly close to this fret-board idea with the MT-48DD product, however the semi-spherical pads seem best for hand or foot work. It may be hard to control using a stick or a mallet. There Y10 also seems to be fairly close, but may be best suited for finger work. I need to investigate this more closely.

Thanks for these leads.

John Rapp


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RAPPONDRUM
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Reged: Sep 22 2003
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Re: New Electronic Controller
      #24694 - Mon Sep 29 2003 08:20 PM (68.49.122.238)

It looks like the Starr products are all finger struck on pads or strings.

I made a rough picture of the 6 row percussive fret-board based on the malletKat sized pads, and it looks a bit too deep to play the furthest row.

James, since you've played the mallet Kat, could the keys be shortened?

John Rapp


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James WalkerModerator
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Reged: Mar 18 2002
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Re: New Electronic Controller
      #24695 - Mon Sep 29 2003 10:02 PM (67.75.98.79)

quote:
Originally posted by RAPPONDRUM:
James, since you've played the mallet Kat, could the keys be shortened?

While I won't speak for the folks at Alternate Mode, I don't see why not. The twelve pads in each octave of the Kat are all connected to an FSR sensor pad (and that's about the limit of my understanding of that particular technology), and 99% of the time my striking area on each pad was pretty much right in the center, not making use of the edges of each pad.

I checked out some of the spare keys from my Xylosynth last week, and while the bar is about 2"X4" in size (rough estimate off the top of my head), the actual (piezo?) contact element on the bottom is not much larger than a silver dollar - so I suspect that if one wished to have smaller keys (bars, pads) on such a mallet controller, it should be possible.

Try taking the narrower dimension of the MalletKat pad, and use that dimension to form a square rather than a rectangle with greater length - does that help bring the dimensions down to size?


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Roy Pertchik
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Reged: Sep 27 2003
Posts: 6
Loc: New York
Re: New Electronic Controller
      #24696 - Tue Sep 30 2003 04:50 PM (204.74.0.22)

Hi Rapp,

For my first prototype of the three color chromatic keyboard, I worked over a Mallet Kat. This was an older Kat from 15 years ago, but I'm sure the new ones are similar under the pads. If you lift the pads off, you find a sandwhich of three layers of clear plastic. For each pad, on the inner layer of plastic, are printed two combs in metalic ink, much like the ink on a printed circuit board. The fingers of the two combs are interlaced, one finger from each comb fitting between two fingers of the opposite comb, but never touching. Then, metal ink from each pair of combs under each pad runs to a central point where a ribbon of plastic and ink "wires" passes into the box below and is connected to computer chips. When you strike a pad, the impact effects the interlaced comb fingers so that a signal can detect the impact. (There are no piezos in the Kat, it's adifferent system). I was able to peel up the entire palstic sandwhich of twelve notes on a Kat module and cut apart the notes and rearrange them in a chromatic way, and then cobble back the connections to the central ribbon using conductive paint and wires. I then glued the rubber pads back over the notes and painted them three colors. It worked for a few weeks, long enough for me to know the idea was great, but then one of my connections failed and I abandoned it.
As for you rebuilding a Kat by cutting the detectors shorter, I'd be affraid of making such subtantial changes to the combs; I don't know how that would effect the whole detection circuit (change of impedance, etc.) I also don't think the manufacturer will be able to alter the way they make Mallet Kat pads for you; it is a printed manufactured sandwhich and a one-off change would be hard to do. However, they may have smaller single pads available from another type of drum instrument. Another approach you might consider is to use real metal bars with piezo's from K&K. These can produce analoge vibes sound or can go through K&K's midi module to produce midi signals. Then you just have to solve the physical problem of aranging the bars in a chromatic sequence. You could do this by building your own vibes frame and making support pins that zig and zag the the cord in the right way to use normal vibes bars, or you could commission a set of custom vibes bars in the right geometry to arrange chromatically (Nico vanderPlas can make you bars like these.) With either of these last two suggestions, I assume you would abbandon multiple rows in favor of two rows. Sounds like you still think multiple rows are a good idea. Do you mind my asking, why you think that is so?


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