Cody
Tiger Talk Pro
Reged: Nov 15 2003
Posts: 278
Loc: Wisconsin
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Hey guys,
I just started teaching the percussion ensemble at my old high school. Its going really well besides a few younger players that are having a hard time grasping the swing feel. They are performing a piece called 'A Time for Jazz' by Jared Spears. Im really not sure how to convey exactly how to play the swing feel besides explaining that it is somewhere in between triplets and dotted sixteenths with a small emphasis on 1&3. I can explain how to play the ride pattern to the set player, who was already familiar with swing but the auxiliary and keyboard players are a little more difficult for me. Any suggestions? Thanks
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A drummers everystep is music.
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James Walker
Tiger Talk Pro
Reged: Mar 18 2002
Posts: 1283
Loc: Connecticut
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One can only get so far trying to learn "swing" from an analytical standpoint. "Somewhere between triplets and dotted sixteenths" isn't necessarily inaccurate, but it doesn't tell the whole story.
With my students, I've gotten the best results helping them develop their swing feel by having them immerse themselves in the great jazz musicians. Have your students (drum set and otherwise) play the standard ride pattern along with recordings by the Basie band, Art Blakey, Jimmy Cobb, etc. (Miles Davis' "Kind Of Blue" is a great starting point - lots of medium tempos, and not much in the way of drumming "acrobatics" by Mr. Cobb - just beautiful, tasteful timekeeping.) The goal is to match the phrasing of each drummer's swung eighth notes as closely as possible. Different drummers will have slightly different takes on "swing" - and a drummer's concept of swung eighth notes may change from song to song, fast vs.slow tempos, etc.
Also, have them try singing along to some accessible solos by other instrumentalists besides drummers. By "accessible," I mean something not too fast, not too busy, not too chromatic, etc. There's a lot to be gained just by learning to sing a few phrases of Wynton Kelly's piano lines on "Kind Of Blue."
It's like learning to speak a new language with a good accent. One can describe what a French accent sounds like, but there's no substitute for immersing yourself in the language, hearing what the language sounds like. The same holds true when developing one's swing feel, IMO.
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Cody
Tiger Talk Pro
Reged: Nov 15 2003
Posts: 278
Loc: Wisconsin
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Well I thought of that. Kind of Blue is what my band director made me go buy when I first started jazz. I am definitely going to try having them play with the recordings. Do I do it as a group? And do I have them play just the ride pattern or swung eighth notes? I have had them play just swung eighth together and they were fairly clean but when it came time to translating it to their parts the swing feel is lost.
Also a side note. I have one kid that keeps getting frustrated and quits playing even though he's really close to playing the part right. I asked him what he was having trouble with and just says he doesnt know the swing style. But he does the same thing when I tell him not to worry about the swing for now? Any tips for that...or am I going about that totally wrong.
Sorry first non marching band group ive instructed. Its so much easier to make them do push ups and tell them to stay at attention...
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A drummers everystep is music.
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Tea Bag
Tiger Talk Pro
Reged: Sep 16 2004
Posts: 1423
Loc: Canada
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LoL..I suppose pushups are more mechanical and less subjective. I tried coaching a high school 'swing' band once , as most of them were so stiff and mechanical it was painful to listen to. I run into this with some classically trained keyboard players as well - they can't improvise to save their life; as they are so drilled into reading the notes on the page. It was the same with the brass and woodwind players in this band. Without getting into theory, I tried to get them to loosen up and play with expression - basically you've got to feel it.. so if you're a sax player doing a solo you don't just sit there and play notes.. you stand up and dance with your instrument and put some feel into it.. one thing I showed the drummer was that the ride swing doesn't have to be played with a stiff straight up and down motion.. you can play the same pattern with a dynamic L shaped, or oval motion... you can swing like crazy doing this.. but the main thing was to get them to loosen up and feel the notes.
If you can do that combined with some of the other great tips James mentioned above, they'll get there eventually.
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James Walker
Tiger Talk Pro
Reged: Mar 18 2002
Posts: 1283
Loc: Connecticut
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I don't have any other suggestions of how to have the students work on developing a good swing feel, but I've noticed in my students that often, the student is able to play swung eighth notes before they develop a comfort level with it. I've got one drum set student working on Stevie Wonder's "Superstition", and to help him get the swung feel in the hi-hat part I had him play along to some Miles Davis and Art Blakey records. At his next lesson, he played along to a Miles track for me, and then played a basic version of Stevie's "Superstition" groove, and he played it correctly - but he still doesn't feel comfortable with it. It's getting better, tho.
Getting a swing feel "correct" isn't as cut and dried as other aspects of rhythm, such as "there are four sixteenth notes in one beat of 4/4 time, and you count them 1-e-&-a." It's not a matter of counting, but rather getting a certain feeling - it's not purely mathematical. That makes it a bit tougher for one to know when they're getting it right, IMO.
The more they do it, the more confident they'll feel. They'll get there.
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Tea Bag
Tiger Talk Pro
Reged: Sep 16 2004
Posts: 1423
Loc: Canada
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Just remembered.. Steve Smith has a great description of swing and how it came about on his 2-dvd set. It's been a while, but I seem to recall he demonstrated by just tapping his hands on his legs playing triplets against straight 8's or 16ths with his other hand.
There may be some good Youtube demos as well..
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Cody
Tiger Talk Pro
Reged: Nov 15 2003
Posts: 278
Loc: Wisconsin
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Yeah Im having trouble finding my Kind of Blue album....Its been a while. But I did have them run an exercise that seemed to help a little. I just had them play quarter notes together well thinking of the triplet subdivision with their eyes closed. Got that from an old band mate. It seemed to help. But I just hate teaching a young group without focus... They are starting to loosen up.
Hopefully I can find my Kind of Blue album. I really liked that idea. Oh and I have thought of having them dance well playing. Just doing a small 2-step or something. Lighten the mood anyway.
Gotta love youtube! Thats a good idea. Ill check to see if anything is up there.
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A drummers everystep is music.
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Tea Bag
Tiger Talk Pro
Reged: Sep 16 2004
Posts: 1423
Loc: Canada
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Oops.. when I mentioned 'dancing with the instrument' I meant it kind of like a metaphor.. kind of like being 'one with your instrument'. I wouldn't want to encourage anyone to do a polka..while soloing .. just put a bit of body expression into their solos, and look like they're into it, having fun and entertain the audience. To me there's nothing more boring to watch than a soloist or performer that just stands there, stiff as a board. I guess I was spoiled as I grew up in the 70's and in high school we had guys that could just blow the roof off.
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roger strange
Tiger Talk Pro
Reged: Dec 09 2003
Posts: 1650
Loc: Nova Scotia Canada
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It's about the eighth note triplet and the dotted quarter. It's also about listening to swing and Bop. I mean a lot.
It's also about understanding the 3 against 2 hemiola.(I believe Steve Smith coined the phrase "the American Beat" as far as the hemiola is concerned)
And it's about understanding the quarter note 3-2 clave (2 bar phrase) for the phrasing.
Edited by roger strange (Thu Jan 27 2011 03:05 PM)
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Cody
Tiger Talk Pro
Reged: Nov 15 2003
Posts: 278
Loc: Wisconsin
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Haha The only reason I was going to have them do the two step, or whatever, is purely to loosen them up. Our rehearsal is at 8 in the morning so I have a hard time even getting them to stay awake. And I totally agree with you. Watching stiff performers is almost painful. Its hard to believe they are even absorbed in the music, and it usually shows in the music. I also think todays youth (im young but have distanced myself as much as possible from modern 'ways') is wayyy to distracted by the million different things technology offers to really excel in anything other than multitasking.
Alright so I guess we can all agree that the only real thing that is going to help the students understand the swing feel is to immerse themselves in the classic/any recordings. The next obstacle I see is getting high school kids to actually do that? Any tips for that. Its like my first director told me along time ago, 'Jazz is like beer, its an acquired taste. But once you truly understand the subtle differences and nuances, you'll start to develop a taste for it that is unmatched.' How do you get these students to dive into something that im sure doesnt seem that appealing?
By the way thanks for the help.
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A drummers everystep is music.
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